Ford 4000 poor running when warm

[Superbros8]

Electronic ignition. that is good. Ignore the distributor shaft issue in prior posts. Jim

Sounds good!

 

[Superbros8]

All good, figured it’d be worth an ask before I sat and cranked on it, but I’ll definitely check that strainer.

Electronic ignition. that is good. Ignore the distributor shaft issue in prior posts. Jim

I did find a little play from left to right of tractor in distributor shaft but none front to back

Electronic ignition. that is good. Ignore the distributor shaft issue in prior posts. Jim

can those electronic ignitions go bad over time?

 

[Superbros8]

So I decided to do a compression test and found that cylinder 2 is down 30-40 from 3 and 1 respectively, what’s the minimum compression these engines need to have? Could the compression be remixed via a valve adjust or is it pretty much needing a tear down to further inspect other than via borescope

 

[Janicholson]

I did find a little play from left to right of tractor in distributor shaft but none front to back

can those electronic ignitions go bad over time?

They are usually not affected very much if the play (not in and out) is less than .002. (that is not a good number for points and condenser)

 

[Janicholson]

So I decided to do a compression test and found that cylinder 2 is down 30-40 from 3 and 1 respectively, what’s the minimum compression these engines need to have? Could the compression be remixed via a valve adjust or is it pretty much needing a tear down to further inspect other than via borescope

A valve adjust might help that, but it deserves watching in the future. It won't likely fix your issue. Jim

 

[Superbros8]

A valve adjust might help that, but it deserves watching in the future. It won't likely fix your issue. Jim

That’s kind of what I was figuring it looks like there may be some vertical marking of the cylinder wall so it may need gone through on that cylinder, and since it’s one that runs on the Electronic ignition is that any different for movement compared to points and condenser?

 

[used red MN]

That’s kind of what I was figuring it looks like there may be some vertical marking of the cylinder wall so it may need gone through on that cylinder, and since it’s one that runs on the Electronic ignition is that any different for movement compared to points and condenser?

I am not following what you are saying here? All the cylinders run on the same ignition. Unless you are asking if the tractor’s engine would wear differently being fired by an electronic ignition vs one using points. I’m not even sure if the electronic ignition will create a higher voltage spark if you use the same coil that was used with the points. If the EI fired a higher voltage and the fuel mixture was optimized to take advantage of this, the engine should actually wear longer because the fuel is being burned more efficiently and completely. Probably the greatest reduction in wear would come from a hotter spark being able to burn the richer mixture introduced when the engine is started cold. Measuring whether or not there is a difference in 0wear between two engines running the two different ignition systems would take some fairly elaborate measurement equipment. I believe that when GM came out with the HEI the ability of it to fire hotter was impart due to the ability of the module to adjust the dwell time. I would have to listen to the Hot Rod Farmers (Ray Bohacz) podcast episode to get a refresher on it. If you have any interest to learn about it I will link the episode. Be fore warned he does go off on the occasional tangent. Ray is not some goof doing crazy things with tractors he is an automotive engineer, was a tuner for a drag car team and wrote technical articles for Motorsports publications such as Hot Rod. He runs a smaller acreage farm in New Jersey focused on direct sale sweet corn production. Hot Rod Farmer HEI ign.
Also curious if your tractor has the Zenith or the Holley carburetor? As shown in the link; Fuel System section, subsections 09D01 or 09D03?
CNHI 3 cyl Ford 4000 parts catalog Looks like the Holley has a few more things that can go wrong on them.

 

[Superbros8]

I am not following what you are saying here? All the cylinders run on the same ignition. Unless you are asking if the tractor’s engine would wear differently being fired by an electronic ignition vs one using points. I’m not even sure if the electronic ignition will create a higher voltage spark if you use the same coil that was used with the points. If the EI fired a higher voltage and the fuel mixture was optimized to take advantage of this, the engine should actually wear longer because the fuel is being burned more efficiently and completely. Probably the greatest reduction in wear would come from a hotter spark being able to burn the richer mixture introduced when the engine is started cold. Measuring whether or not the wear between two engines running the two different ignition systems would take some fairly elaborate measurement equipment. I believe that when GM came out with the HEI the ability of it to fire hotter was impart due to the ability of the module to adjust the dwell time. I would have to listen to the Hot Rod Farmers (Ray Bohacz) podcast episode to get a refresher on it. If you have any interest to learn about it I will link the episode. Be fore warned he does go off on the occasional tangent. Ray is not some goof doing crazy things with tractors he is an automotive engineer, was a tuner for a drag car team and wrote technical article for Motorsports publications such as Hot Rod. He runs a smaller acreage farm in New Jersey focused on direct sale sweet corn production. Hot Rod Farmer HEI ign.

Apologies for them running together but it was 2 separate parts, one was in relation to the poor compression in cylinder 2 and some noticeable vertical marking in the cylinder wall as well as some oil and maybe some carbon that’s worked down the walls. The play in the ignition was in relation to the camshaft bushing in the ignition and me asking if the playing being present from left to right in comparison to the tractor could be causing ignition issues and if there was any difference to be mindful of in play between an electronic vs a point ignition system. I also appreciate the link to the podcast I will definitely give it a listen!

 

[used red MN]

Okay, that makes more sense. The distributor shaft bushing likely wore on the side the points running block was pushing it against. In my opinion wear in the distributor shaft bushing has more effect on the consistency or lack of it between the firing of all the cylinders. Way more than causing one individual cylinder to be affected. Scoring on the cylinder wall would be difficult to attribute to the spark that particular cylinder was receiving. Since there is no tension against the distributor shaft it can turn freely maintaining a more stationary axis, so that should be an advantage for the EI. When the points are applying pressure against the shaft it is my opinion the shaft will have more of a tendency to “walk around” in the bushing. These are my opinions or educated guesses, hopefully there will be others that will have more comments.

 

[Janicholson]

Okay, that makes more sense. The distributor shaft bushing likely wore on the side the points running block was pushing it against. In my opinion wear in the distributor shaft bushing has more effect on the consistency or lack of it between the firing of all the cylinders. Way more than causing one individual cylinder to be affected. Scoring on the cylinder wall would be difficult to attribute to the spark that particular cylinder was receiving. Since there is no tension against the distributor shaft it can turn freely maintaining a more stationary axis, so that should be an advantage for the EI. When the points are applying pressure against the shaft it is my opinion the shaft will have more of a tendency to “walk around” in the bushing. These are my opinions or educated guesses, hopefully there will be others that will have more comments.

Agree triggering a sensor (hall effect, or reluctor) is more rotation indexed than the mechanical movement of points. so the shaft has much less side pressure and less change in timing unless it was either rubbing on the sensor, or so far away that it lost triggering. and it is not likely time/heat related to cause the issue at hand. Jim

 

[Superbros8]

Okay, that makes more sense. The distributor shaft bushing likely wore on the side the points running block was pushing it against. In my opinion wear in the distributor shaft bushing has more effect on the consistency or lack of it between the firing of all the cylinders. Way more than causing one individual cylinder to be affected. Scoring on the cylinder wall would be difficult to attribute to the spark that particular cylinder was receiving. Since there is no tension against the distributor shaft it can turn freely maintaining a more stationary axis, so that should be an advantage for the EI. When the points are applying pressure against the shaft it is my opinion the shaft will have more of a tendency to “walk around” in the bushing. These are my opinions or educated guesses, hopefully there will be others that will have more comments.

I’m guessing the only time it would likely have an effect is if there was a major change in air gap then within the distributor due to the worn bushing. I’m guessing the damage in cylinder 2 is probably due to built up carbon coming loose and getting stuck under the rings, but I’m not for sure, going to have to see what we decide to do with the tractor and if I tear into I’ll get some picture of the cylinder

 

[Superbros8]

Agree triggering a sensor (hall effect, or reluctor) is more rotation indexed than the mechanical movement of points. so the shaft has much less side pressure and less change in timing unless it was either rubbing on the sensor, or so far away that it lost triggering. and it is not likely time/heat related to cause the issue at hand. Jim

Makes sense then, unless when the engine is accelerating it’s twisting the shaft to the side that’s the only time I could see the bushing causing issues with spark

 

[Janicholson]

I’m guessing the only time it would likely have an effect is if there was a major change in air gap then within the distributor due to the worn bushing. I’m guessing the damage in cylinder 2 is probably due to built up carbon coming loose and getting stuck under the rings, but I’m not for sure, going to have to see what we decide to do with the tractor and if I tear into I’ll get some picture of the cylinder

With a smart phone you can use a USB endoscope to see in there with clear definition Cheap on line. Jim

 

[Superbros8]

With a smart phone you can use a USB endoscope to see in there with clear definition Cheap on line. Jim

I looked in there with one I had earlier, that’s how i identified the vertical scratches but it doesn’t have the greatest video quality out there, but I can probably get some pictures tomorrow if anything

 

[Superbros8]

Agree triggering a sensor (hall effect, or reluctor) is more rotation indexed than the mechanical movement of points. so the shaft has much less side pressure and less change in timing unless it was either rubbing on the sensor, or so far away that it lost triggering. and it is not likely time/heat related to cause the issue at hand. Jim

For the ignition coil on these tractors does it have 2 wires that are supposed to go to it? One for a starting voltage boost and then another with an inline resistor? I have two wires going to mine and they have very different ohm readings between the two, they terminate in the same pin on the coil as well. Is there something I need to test through? The first image is my reading through the white wire with a red stripe and the second is a brown wire what looks like an orange stripe.

 

[Superbros8]

I am not following what you are saying here? All the cylinders run on the same ignition. Unless you are asking if the tractor’s engine would wear differently being fired by an electronic ignition vs one using points. I’m not even sure if the electronic ignition will create a higher voltage spark if you use the same coil that was used with the points. If the EI fired a higher voltage and the fuel mixture was optimized to take advantage of this, the engine should actually wear longer because the fuel is being burned more efficiently and completely. Probably the greatest reduction in wear would come from a hotter spark being able to burn the richer mixture introduced when the engine is started cold. Measuring whether or not there is a difference in 0wear between two engines running the two different ignition systems would take some fairly elaborate measurement equipment. I believe that when GM came out with the HEI the ability of it to fire hotter was impart due to the ability of the module to adjust the dwell time. I would have to listen to the Hot Rod Farmers (Ray Bohacz) podcast episode to get a refresher on it. If you have any interest to learn about it I will link the episode. Be fore warned he does go off on the occasional tangent. Ray is not some goof doing crazy things with tractors he is an automotive engineer, was a tuner for a drag car team and wrote technical articles for Motorsports publications such as Hot Rod. He runs a smaller acreage farm in New Jersey focused on direct sale sweet corn production. Hot Rod Farmer HEI ign.
Also curious if your tractor has the Zenith or the Holley carburetor? As shown in the link; Fuel System section, subsections 09D01 or 09D03?
CNHI 3 cyl Ford 4000 parts catalog Looks like the Holley has a few more things that can go wrong on them.

I messed the last part but my tractor does have a Holley carb