JD 2010 wheel loader to 2020 Ag compatibilty

[Ctrl+Alt+Grease]

Hi everyone, this is my first post, so please don't crucify me for asking this weird question. Save that for the second one!

Anyway, I'm in the process of purchasing a '70 JD 2020 and I'm looking to attach a loader. Conventional wisdom points me to a 46, 46a, or 47 loader that was designed for that vintage tractor, but I've come across a 2010 industrial loader, without tractor, with self-leveling and higher lifting capacity for a good price.

From the looks of the loader, it attaches to the rear axle on the back and to the mounting brackets alongside the engine. This is different than the previously mentioned Loaders that bolt on to the sides of the frame and engine.

So, the question is: will the industrial loader bolt onto the 2020 if I get the attachment brackets? will the bolt holes line up? Should bank on making custom brackets? Am I completely off on this being a viable option?

Let me know, I appreciate the help!

 

[Tx Jim]

Welcome to YT
I think 2010 loader will not be a direct bolt on to 2020 but with a acetylene torch & welder anything is possible. 2010 fel hyd control valve will be open center & will not operate correctly on 2020 closed center hyd system unless it will accept a CC conversion plug

 

[Ctrl+Alt+Grease]

(quoted from post at 15:15:31 03/14/21)
Welcome to YT
I think 2010 loader will not be a direct bolt on to 2020 but with a acetylene torch & welder anything is possible. 2010 fel hyd control valve will be open center & will not operate correctly on 2020 closed center hyd system unless it will accept a CC conversion plug

I didn't see that difference when I was looking on tractor data but it makes sense. There's a secondary hydraulic pump on the front of the 2010 wheel's engine that was designed to run the loader and backhoe of equipped. Ill have to see if that's part of the package.

If it's not a part of it could I use a closed center control valve off the original hydraulics or the closed center conversion plug, right?

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 16:20:26 03/14/21)

(quoted from post at 15:15:31 03/14/21)
Welcome to YT
I think 2010 loader will not be a direct bolt on to 2020 but with a acetylene torch & welder anything is possible. 2010 fel hyd control valve will be open center & will not operate correctly on 2020 closed center hyd system unless it will accept a CC conversion plug

I didn't see that difference when I was looking on tractor data but it makes sense. There's a secondary hydraulic pump on the front of the 2010 wheel's engine that was designed to run the loader and backhoe of equipped. Ill have to see if that's part of the package.

If it's not a part of it could I use a closed center control valve off the original hydraulics or the closed center conversion plug, right?

I wouldn't replace the 2020 hydraulic system pump with the open center one from the 2010, as the 2020 hydraulic system is designed to be closed center, not just the pump. A closed center conversion plug might be able to be installed in an open center valve from the 2010, so it will work on a closed center system (if you can get a conversion plug for the 2010 valve (if it will accept one), as the plugs are not "one fits all"). Or you will need to get a true closed center valve.

 

[centash]

If you are putting an industrial level loader on an ag tractor, you may have to
upgrade the front axle.

Ben

 

[buickanddeere]

. 2020 has closed Center hydraulics and the 2010 was open Center .
My Father tried to save money by purchasing a 2010 and having a model 48 loader frame torched to line up with the 2010s bolt patterns .
It was the last time he tried to save money.
The 48 loader was mounted a couple months later onto a gas 2020 and years later onto a diesel 2120 .

 

[Ctrl+Alt+Grease]

Good info everyone, so what I gather is that unless I'm using a closed center control valve on my closed center tractor I'll have issues. If I can get a plug for the open center control valve port then that's an option too.

On the mounting aspect it's a solid maybe. I know that as long as the axle uses the same dimensions from a 2010 wheel to a 2020 ag the rear will mount fine, it's the front mount position that may need modifications or a custom bracket.

Anyone know how thick the brackets are on 2020's? I was unable to find anything online in stock.

 

[Jim.ME]

What are you referring to as brackets on the 2020?

 

[Ctrl+Alt+Grease]

(quoted from post at 20:58:24 03/14/21)
What are you referring to as brackets on the 2020?

I guess they're called "Side Frames" JD part #T21652 and T21651

 

[Tx Jim]

If you look at rear outside of 2020 frt axle support that radiator & frt axle attach to there's a recessed area(see photo below) that was designed for side frames to attach to. The side frames will be same thickness as the recessed area. I've mounted many side frames on JD 20-55 series utility tractors but never measured any of them. My guess side frames are about 1'' thick.

 

[Jim.ME]

Got a 2020 I'm working on. They are 1/2" thick by 5" wide with multiple holes for attachments. But I don't think any of the holes match the 2010 industrial loader mounts from what I remember of a 2010 with a loader I worked on a while back.

 

[Tx Jim]

I think an open center pump possibly pto powered could be added to a JD 2020 similar to early 2020 that utilized an open center hyd pump mounted to RH frt of engine to operate the power steering if a closed center plug can't be located for 2010 control valve. I think this open center pump couldn't be powered from engine crankshaft due to closed center pump already powered by engine crankshaft pulley

 

[Jim.ME]

As centash posted, you could be inviting front axle problems, with that loader on a 2020 with the ag front axle. If you do mount it, use it with care, the lifting capacity and breakout forces are greater than the ag loaders.

I agree with Tx Jim the PTO pump will work, but you need to figure out a reservoir for it, be it from the tractor or a separate tank. Also you won't be able to use the PTO for implements if the pump is on it. A new closed center control valve, properly connected into your 2020's hydraulic system, may be your best route. There are a number of posts describing proper connection points and components for hydraulics on these tractors.

 

[Tx Jim]

X2 what Jim.ME stated about utilizing a new valve with closed center plug would be better choice if closed center conversion plug wasn't available for 2010 open center valve.

 

[tomstractorsandtoys]

If you do not have side frames you should get a set. I have an extra set here I would sell for $250 plus shipping. Post back if interested. Also if you pass on the industrial loader you mentioned others. A 46 or 46A will not fit a 2020. If you find a 47 make sure you know what it came off of as a 47 off a 2510 will not fit a 2020 and there are also different brackets between a 3 cylinder tractor and a 4 like your 2020. A 48 loader is a good choice for a 2020 but you will need utility brackets which are much harder to find. Also look at 145 and 146 loaders. Tom

 

[buickanddeere]

There are about 300 detailed past posts on how to route oil to and from the loaders control valves . On a Dubuque/Mannheim utility tractor .
Dont even bother trying the SCV . The hydraulics will be slow and front pump will cavitation due to insufficient oil supply .
Supply from a T in the line running up to , prior to the SCV . Return the oil into the tractor with a ported filter cover .

 

[Ctrl+Alt+Grease]

Thanks for the info everyone, you are all a huge knowledge source for old-tractor newbies like myself!

I was comparing specs of the 48 and the industrial and actually the abilities between the two are similar but the 48 is actually stronger or better in most cases.

Breakout force
48: 3600lb
Ind: 3000lb

Lift to full height
48: 2400lb
Ind: 2000lb

Clearance with dumped bucket
48: 104"
Ind: 97.75"
(I think this may be due to different bucket dimensions)

So I'm worried less about over loading the 2020 with the industrial loader if the 48 loader is the recommended one for it. Whew!

As far as the side frames go, It looked like it was roughly 1/2" but I couldn't be sure if it was supposed to be wider than the recess. I may have to have a set made with custom mounting locations for the industrial loader. I'll be checking out the loader this week and when I do I'll measure the distance from the axle mount to the frame mount.

If it's simply a matter of the control valve, I have no issue with installing a control valve meant for closed center hydraulics. That seems to be the most effective way of making this work. The PTO is going to be used frequently so I don't want that occupied, an additional pump, while effective may be more trouble than necessary.

Thanks again!

 

[Ctrl+Alt+Grease]

I went and looked at the loader in person today and It's pretty much as expected -an old loader with 60 years of use on it. He also had a partial 48 loader that's missing the bucket, mounts and hoses... it's in fair shape but it looks straight. I might consider it for the right price.

The loader is an industrial 720 that could be had on 2010, 3010 401-A and 500 industrial tractors, but it seems more common on the backhoes. From what I've been reading, the 401 and 2020 are very similar so the loader should fit over the bodywork, across the frame and mount to the rear axle without trouble.

The 2010 loader frame uses specific mounts that go between the frame and the tractor which may need to be modified or re-thought for the 2020.

The hydraulics are the only thing that's holding me back at the moment. There are two control valve versions that look VERY similar and are labeled open center with power beyond and closed center. They're using the same Part number for most parts except a plug, U11427, that may be the closed center plug.

 

[Tx Jim]

I agree U11427 appears to resemble a closed center conversion plug BUT I can't understand why it's also shown on 2010 control valve open center hyd schematics.

 

[Ctrl+Alt+Grease]

(quoted from post at 07:39:19 03/19/21)
I agree U11427 appears to resemble a closed center conversion plug BUT I can't understand why it's also shown on 2010 control valve open center hyd schematics.

I thought it was a different valve in the the basic loader option. you're image shows the Drott Bucket. I don't believe it's the same for the standard bucket.

 

[Ctrl+Alt+Grease]

Whoops, that photo was for the Closed center system, here's the open center one.

 

[Tx Jim]

Fitting(key 18) in your photo is labeled relief valve not OC or CC

 

[Ctrl+Alt+Grease]

(quoted from post at 09:12:12 03/20/21)
Fitting(key 18) in your photo is labeled relief valve not OC or CC

I believe that's because this control valve uses "Power beyond". The relief valve is located perpendicular to the return line connection to the reservoir. To provide power beyond there has to be some pressure in the hydraulic system, even without the loader being operated, right? so the relief valve simply bleeds any excessive pressure out all of the time.

On the diagram with the same loader, but with a closed center configuration for a 3010, there's a plug there. I can only imagine that the plug blocks the flow of fluid from the center oil gallery to the return line, making it a "Closed Center" system.

I've found the U11427 valve in many "Closed Center" system diagrams but it's never labelled a "closed center conversion plug", in fact, none of the diagrams I could find that are labelled "Closed Center" have a part labelled "Closed Center plug".

Am I missing something?

 

[Jim.ME]

Someone was here hunting for a closed center plug to convert a much new open center valve (compact tractor size backhoe I think it was) to closed center and I don't think they were able to find the plug. NLA was the answer as I remember it. In the end you will likely be as far ahead to buy a new closed center loader valve, then you know what you have. JMHO

 

[Ctrl+Alt+Grease]

(quoted from post at 06:16:07 03/23/21) Someone was here hunting for a closed center plug to convert a much new open center valve (compact tractor size backhoe I think it was) to closed center and I don't think they were able to find the plug. NLA was the answer as I remember it. In the end you will likely be as far ahead to buy a new closed center loader valve, then you know what you have. JMHO

That's true and I understand the perspective.

I guess i'm just hung up on the fact that the loader uses the same valve in the open center 2010 and the closed center 3010... the main difference being the pressure relief valve and plug, respectively. The bodies are the same according to the diagrams.

I'm going to Call the local JD dealer to find out more.

 

[Jim.ME]

The open center valve needs a relief between the valve spool inlets and the pump because when the spools are in neutral, oil flows unrestricted through the valve and back to the reservoir, no pressure is built until that flow is blocked, the pump is constantly pumping oil through the entire system. When a spool is moved, blocking the flow back to the reservoir, the relief comes into play so the system doesn't over pressure and damage the pump or other components.

The closed center system is controlled by a system relief valve which is separate from the loader, and any other control valves such as the SCV. That system relief valve keeps the system at operating pressure and when oil is not needed for functions the pump de-strokes when system relief pressure is reached. The loader valve return to reservoir is blocked by the closed center plug so not oil flows through it, it is under full system pressure all the time. Hard starting is a common complaint if a closed center system has a leak as the pump is trying to build pressure if it is not de-stroked.

Open center vale has the relief on the inlet side of the valve, outlet is not blocked, as in the center passage of the valve is open. Closed center can have a plug in place of the relief valve as it is not needed. The center return port, which would allow oil from the pump to return to the reservoir has to be plugged. The oil returning from the cylinders, when a valve is moved will have an open path to the reservoir through the valve return port. Hence the closed center name.

So, yes the same valve body can be used for both open and closed system, IF, the plugs and relief valve arrangement is correct for the type system. That's kind of a half baked, short version of the difference in the two, if it helps.

 

[Ctrl+Alt+Grease]

It absolutely helps, thanks!

So the relief valve in the open center diagram is used to maintain a small amount of pressure in the system, dumping any excess back to the reservoir since that system isn't designed to deadhead the hydraulic pump.

The closed center system uses the U11427 plug to block off the center gallery, allowing the hydraulic system to control system pressure and only flow fluid through the valves when the spools are moved.

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 20:57:30 03/24/21)
It absolutely helps, thanks!

So the relief valve in the open center diagram is used to maintain a small amount of pressure in the system, dumping any excess back to the reservoir since that system isn't designed to deadhead the hydraulic pump.

The closed center system uses the U11427 plug to block off the center gallery, allowing the hydraulic system to control system pressure and only flow fluid through the valves when the spools are moved.

I think you pretty much got it.

Open system
The relief valve only opens when a spool valve is moved, blocking the center passage, to operate a function and resistance within that function causes a system pressure to rise to/above the relief valve set point. Correct, it prevents dead heading the pump. If a spool is not moved the center is open to return to reservoir -no pressure.

Closed system
Since the center port in the valve body is plugged there is no circulation through the valve when the spools are not being moved to operate a function. The center passage has full system pressure at all times. The closed center pump de-strokes (stops pumping) when system pressure is reached, preventing the pump from dead heading.

 

[Ctrl+Alt+Grease]

So here's an update on the project...

I bought the loader after a little negotiation that left me feeling confident that I wouldn't be loosing on the deal if the loader valve was incompatible.

I also found an image of the end plate of the 3020 control valve that was clearly labeled "CLOSED CENTER" to avoid any mismatching. So I checked mine and found that it was different and contained an access plug. I removed the plug and found an internally threaded section that allowed it to act as an open center but when a plug is installed it prevents the inlet port from connecting to the outlet, basically it's the closed center conversion. It was 3/4" NPT threads I believe so I installed a plug and modified the relief valve we were discussing before so it wouldn't open and I think my conversion is complete!

The loader frame mounting plates use a different bolt pattern than the 2020 so I modified it and bought some heavy duty 7/8" cold formed U-bolts and mounted it up.

I was mistaken about the 401 using the same loader, it's very similar, but the frame is mounted under the rear axle and the front of the frames are mounted using the big 1-7/16" holes in the front end of the tractor.

I made a set of side frames without mounting points to reinforce the engine and front end and I designed an adapter that drops the front pin mount roughly 3/4" to align with the pin mount for the loader frame.

Along the way I've been trying to diagnose and repair the steering system, I found a small piece of metal holding one of the steering hydraulic valves open that was causing an inop 3-pt and autosteer to the right. Once that was done I had to rebuild the worn-out front end and replace a few bushings and well as repair some pivot pins for the front axle. I'm finally done repairing the tractor and am just about ready to get working with it.

I'll post some pics soon.