Marvel Schebler 670 on D14 won't stop overflowing.

[onetotaltoolman]

Ok , allis owners. This is flat out wearing me out. Yes, i have not worked on a carb since highschool, but this M.S. 670 in the
D14 i'm overhauling should not be this big of a challenge. This tractor was a farm find. In horrid shape. Parts box that came with the tractor had a
TSX carb in it (new) . Think the original owner was thinking overhaul. I took off the marvel , and put on the tsx just to get it to run (after engine work).
Now painted and near completetion, figured i would get a rebuild kit for the marvel and put it back stock. The tsx linkage really does not fit this model anyway. Problem? I have 3 different parts kits. I have tried a variety of float valve and seats, with a new float, and no matter what i do this carb overflows.
I've taken the carb off 6 times and adjusted the float level, up to the point where i built a "test" station on my bench. Still overflows. The only thing i have done is change the fuel line to 5/16's to match an in line 2nd. fuel filter. I"M STUMPED. Anyone have this happen to them?? ,ORiginal valve (i think) on the right pic, cheap china replacement next to it. I also looked at the casting thinking maybe this carb has a crack in it but heck i can't see anything there either. Ideas guys?

 

[old]

Ok , allis owners. This is flat out wearing me out. Yes, i have not worked on a carb since highschool, but this M.S. 670 in the
D14 i'm overhauling should not be this big of a challenge. This tractor was a farm find. In horrid shape. Parts box that came with the tractor had a
TSX carb in it (new) . Think the original owner was thinking overhaul. I took off the marvel , and put on the tsx just to get it to run (after engine work).
Now painted and near completetion, figured i would get a rebuild kit for the marvel and put it back stock. The tsx linkage really does not fit this model anyway. Problem? I have 3 different parts kits. I have tried a variety of float valve and seats, with a new float, and no matter what i do this carb overflows.
I've taken the carb off 6 times and adjusted the float level, up to the point where i built a "test" station on my bench. Still overflows. The only thing i have done is change the fuel line to 5/16's to match an in line 2nd. fuel filter. I"M STUMPED. Anyone have this happen to them?? ,ORiginal valve (i think) on the right pic, cheap china replacement next to it. I also looked at the casting thinking maybe this carb has a crack in it but heck i can't see anything there either. Ideas guys?

Did you put a gasket ring under the needle seat and then tight it down good and tight?? If you didn't do both that can be it. Or if it has the rubber tip needle you need to put a set in the tip by tapping in the needle before installing the float so as to set the tip. Once set you should see a ring in the rubber part of the tip

 

[Jim.ME]

Ok , allis owners. This is flat out wearing me out. Yes, i have not worked on a carb since highschool, but this M.S. 670 in the
D14 i'm overhauling should not be this big of a challenge. This tractor was a farm find. In horrid shape. Parts box that came with the tractor had a
TSX carb in it (new) . Think the original owner was thinking overhaul. I took off the marvel , and put on the tsx just to get it to run (after engine work).
Now painted and near completetion, figured i would get a rebuild kit for the marvel and put it back stock. The tsx linkage really does not fit this model anyway. Problem? I have 3 different parts kits. I have tried a variety of float valve and seats, with a new float, and no matter what i do this carb overflows.
I've taken the carb off 6 times and adjusted the float level, up to the point where i built a "test" station on my bench. Still overflows. The only thing i have done is change the fuel line to 5/16's to match an in line 2nd. fuel filter. I"M STUMPED. Anyone have this happen to them?? ,ORiginal valve (i think) on the right pic, cheap china replacement next to it. I also looked at the casting thinking maybe this carb has a crack in it but heck i can't see anything there either. Ideas guys?

My D14 have Marvel Schebler TSX 670 carbs. I used a Standard Motor Products "Hy Grade" basic kit #1302 when I have gone through them. On one I had the threads in the body, where the needle seat goes, that took some cleaning with a small round wire brush and working it back and forth some to get it to go down fully and seat on the fiber seal ring. They can leak by the threads if that is not seated tightly on the fiber. Others have reported having that problem.

It may be just the picture but the floats in the first picture do no appear to be set correctly. Are you using a 1/4" drill bit as a gauge to set the floats? Are the floats parallel to the gasket when set at 1/4" when you finish adjusting them? That is where a drill bit makes a good gauge for checking. Do you hear the floats moving freely when the carb is inverted? When you had the carb assembled did you turn it upside down and try blowing in the fuel line to see if the needle was seated and holding?

The original Marvel Schebler should be a TSX 670 to be correct, is that the number (other than possibly a date stamp) on the tag? When you say the other is a TSX it should have a number like the 670 (and I would expect the casting to have Marvel Schebler on it) if it is a Marvel Schebler TSX Carb. Does it have a tag and what is the number on it? Or is the "new" carb actually a knock off MS TSX?

 

[onetotaltoolman]

Did you put a gasket ring under the needle seat and then tight it down good and tight?? If you didn't do both that can be it. Or if it has the rubber tip needle you need to put a set in the tip by tapping in the needle before installing the float so as to set the tip. Once set you should see a ring in the rubber part of the tip

Yes- gasket ring went in., and i think sealed as it was supposed to . Mr. Old , Great point on the needle. No , i did not do that. Just put the needle and seat back in and adjusted the float. Jim : good points here too. The replacement carb was actually a Zenith 61, not a different tsx . (to much confusion in my allis driven brain). I think the needle seat is good. Why? soaked the carb, no dirt anywhere, a and a new needle, washer and rubber gasket look like a good fit. With that, you aske about the float level. Yes, not perfect in the pic because i've moved it several times. Last effort today was to set up a bench-experiment with a flask of paint thinner about 2' above my bench going thru the carb to see if it held or leaked. It leaked.
The new main jet/needle made the float set at like a 45 deg angle (not level at all with the bottom of the carb body) . Wondering if i should bend the tang some more so that the entire float is level, with a 9/32 drill bit underneath, the bowl. Head scratching,,,,

 

[Jim.ME]

Yes- gasket ring went in., and i think sealed as it was supposed to . Mr. Old , Great point on the needle. No , i did not do that. Just put the needle and seat back in and adjusted the float. Jim : good points here too. The replacement carb was actually a Zenith 61, not a different tsx . (to much confusion in my allis driven brain). I think the needle seat is good. Why? soaked the carb, no dirt anywhere, a and a new needle, washer and rubber gasket look like a good fit. With that, you aske about the float level. Yes, not perfect in the pic because i've moved it several times. Last effort today was to set up a bench-experiment with a flask of paint thinner about 2' above my bench going thru the carb to see if it held or leaked. It leaked.
The new main jet/needle made the float set at like a 45 deg angle (not level at all with the bottom of the carb body) . Wondering if i should bend the tang some more so that the entire float is level, with a 9/32 drill bit underneath, the bowl. Head scratching,,,,

What did you get for a carb kit? Did it come with instructions? Attached you will find a pdf copy of the instructions that come with the kits I get for my TSX670. It tells you how to adjust the floats, same as in the TSX manuals you can find free online..

 

[onetotaltoolman]

Jim: yes, instructions came with the kit. Carbon copy of yours above (thank you for uploading). This carb is a M.S. 670. I had played with the floats when i snapped that pic, so yes, there were off a little then. I got this kit from D.J's . Also checked the passage ways, but the carb is super clean after soaking . I have one other thought on this. In he pic you will see the aluminum fuel line. Been a while since my college physics class, but i upsized that line to 5/16's to fit an additional fuel filter i added after the screen on the tank. Is it possible the weight of the fuel in a bigger line is actually overpowering the float??? Probably going to try to go back to a 1/4" line to see if that is in fact happening. Nothing else is making much sense. BTW - where did you get your carb kit at? Thanks for all input here.

 

[Jim.ME]

Jim: yes, instructions came with the kit. Carbon copy of yours above (thank you for uploading). This carb is a M.S. 670. I had played with the floats when i snapped that pic, so yes, there were off a little then. I got this kit from D.J's . Also checked the passage ways, but the carb is super clean after soaking . I have one other thought on this. In he pic you will see the aluminum fuel line. Been a while since my college physics class, but i upsized that line to 5/16's to fit an additional fuel filter i added after the screen on the tank. Is it possible the weight of the fuel in a bigger line is actually overpowering the float??? Probably going to try to go back to a 1/4" line to see if that is in fact happening. Nothing else is making much sense. BTW - where did you get your carb kit at? Thanks for all input here.

So have you adjusted the floats per the instructions?

5/16" line should not be a problem. MS carbs are used on units with 5/16 lines and fuel pumps on some. And some will say adding an in-line fuel filter causes a restriction which would offset the line increase.

Did you check that the needle seat is tight on the fiber seal ring? Tight, not just down to it.

As old mentioned, did you look to see if the needle shows a ring on the tip, if it is "rubber" not steel?

Did you invert the carb when assembled and try blowing in the fuel inlet or line to see if it held pressure against you blowing in it?

When you invert the carb can you hear the floats move? If they are hanging up they might not be opening/closing the needle properly.

I get kits at the local parts store (which has been in town for about 50 years under various banners), that sells SMP parts.

 

[onetotaltoolman]

Well, yes, to pretty much all questions above. I used a 1/4" drill bit the first time, then when the flooding started, finally switched to a 9/32 bit
(saw that in a post somewhere for the 670 m.s.). The only thing i have not done yet is to try to seat the float needle. I did set up the mini gas tank (using mineral spirits) on the bench to see if i could tell/see/hear etc. how long the fuel took to start overflowing. This one has me completely stumped. I agree about the 5/16 fuel line. would not think that would be a big deal, but at this point i'm down to that. I did order a needle/seat from carbs unlimited , which will be here today. guess i'll try to seat that needle take my time and accurately adjust the float, and see what happens. One thing which you can see in the pics. the old needle is not made the same way as all the new needles. That makes the float set at an angle, so in essence the rear of the float sets at 1/4" , but the front of the float is maybe 3/8" of an inch. That should actually help shut off the fuel, but now still wondering if i should bend the float arms in an "arc" so that front and back will gauge at 1/4" .
Amazing how these small details can cause so many issues.

 

[4wdtom]

Is there a crack in the carb where the fuel could leak in around the fuel inlet/screw in needle seat?

 

[onetotaltoolman]

ahhh,,, my same thought. Started examining the bowl ,and valley to the needle valve inlet last night.
Didn't get this done, got called in by the mrs. for chili and cornbread. Back to shop this morning.
If i can't see a visual crack thinking i'll plug the float needle , invert it and fill the inlet with something liquid and see if
moisture appears from somewhere along the inlet. This was the only other thing that made sense as well.

 

[Dieseltech]

I stopped using the 1/4 inch float setting on MS carbs and now use a 5/16 inch drill bit and have no more leak trouble.

 

[Jim.ME]

Well, yes, to pretty much all questions above. I used a 1/4" drill bit the first time, then when the flooding started, finally switched to a 9/32 bit
(saw that in a post somewhere for the 670 m.s.). The only thing i have not done yet is to try to seat the float needle. I did set up the mini gas tank (using mineral spirits) on the bench to see if i could tell/see/hear etc. how long the fuel took to start overflowing. This one has me completely stumped. I agree about the 5/16 fuel line. would not think that would be a big deal, but at this point i'm down to that. I did order a needle/seat from carbs unlimited , which will be here today. guess i'll try to seat that needle take my time and accurately adjust the float, and see what happens. One thing which you can see in the pics. the old needle is not made the same way as all the new needles. That makes the float set at an angle, so in essence the rear of the float sets at 1/4" , but the front of the float is maybe 3/8" of an inch. That should actually help shut off the fuel, but now still wondering if i should bend the float arms in an "arc" so that front and back will gauge at 1/4" .
Amazing how these small details can cause so many issues.

The float being held up as much as shown in your picture is what was making me ask if the needle seat was completely down. And yes I would recommend you bend the arms and adjust as per the instructions to see what happens. And check to see if the Viton tip of the needle tip shows a light ring, from seating. If not, with the float off and needle setting in the seat, just give the needle a light tap to make it show a ring on the tip.

1/4" is the instructions, 9/32" or 5/16" are used successfully by some. I may be lucky and haven't had an issue with setting mine at 1/4". However, whichever dimension you use, the floats should be adjusted/bent to be parallel to the gasket as shown in the instructions.

 

[onetotaltoolman]

One of the efforts i tried was to jump to a 9/32, but i still had an overflow problem. At 5/16's your engine ran fine?
Think i'll try that to see what happens.

 

[Dieseltech]

One of the efforts i tried was to jump to a 9/32, but i still had an overflow problem. At 5/16's your engine ran fine?
Think i'll try that to see what happens.

Yes, As an OLD MF mechanic I set all the MS/MF carbs to 5/16 with no starting/running problems. Make sure the brass valve gasket is in good shape too, ANY leak there will cause the same trouble.

 

[onetotaltoolman]

Well, no more overflow. Two things that could have done this, (and probably both) . I re-adjusted the float level close to but not up to 5/16.
At the same time, i did feel that "damp" feeling at the gas line inlet fitting (i used two to connect to the actual fuel line). One was a compression fitting. I had not felt any fuel on the lines from the bowl down to carb before. I replaced the compression fitting on the hard-line . While making the float adjustment for the last time, i did fill the bowl with alcohol just to make sure the bowl did not have any leaks/cracks. All ok there. So, i'm thinking one or both of those solved this. Thanks again for all that helped. Now down to pulling the front end this weekend to find out why the steering control motor is leaking. If that gets fixed, this one is done.

 

[jamie bucley]

Ok , allis owners. This is flat out wearing me out. Yes, i have not worked on a carb since highschool, but this M.S. 670 in the
D14 i'm overhauling should not be this big of a challenge. This tractor was a farm find. In horrid shape. Parts box that came with the tractor had a
TSX carb in it (new) . Think the original owner was thinking overhaul. I took off the marvel , and put on the tsx just to get it to run (after engine work).
Now painted and near completetion, figured i would get a rebuild kit for the marvel and put it back stock. The tsx linkage really does not fit this model anyway. Problem? I have 3 different parts kits. I have tried a variety of float valve and seats, with a new float, and no matter what i do this carb overflows.
I've taken the carb off 6 times and adjusted the float level, up to the point where i built a "test" station on my bench. Still overflows. The only thing i have done is change the fuel line to 5/16's to match an in line 2nd. fuel filter. I"M STUMPED. Anyone have this happen to them?? ,ORiginal valve (i think) on the right pic, cheap china replacement next to it. I also looked at the casting thinking maybe this carb has a crack in it but heck i can't see anything there either. Ideas guys?

maby the float is cracked and sinking always in the fuel open position or the needle has a ridge built up on it and not seating properly. take the carb hold it upside down and blow in the fuel line in with the bowl on or off and if you can blow in and air keeps going you know its not seating properly. you can take a cutip put carb cleaner on the cutip and put the cutip in a cordless drill and clean out the seat where the needle is supose to seat. you might have to do this 3 or 4 times till its clean on the cutip. or you can contact the master phil heisley 215-256-8651. he is in pensilvania usa and he sells brand new or used tractor parts.

 

[jamie bucley]

Ok , allis owners. This is flat out wearing me out. Yes, i have not worked on a carb since highschool, but this M.S. 670 in the
D14 i'm overhauling should not be this big of a challenge. This tractor was a farm find. In horrid shape. Parts box that came with the tractor had a
TSX carb in it (new) . Think the original owner was thinking overhaul. I took off the marvel , and put on the tsx just to get it to run (after engine work).
Now painted and near completetion, figured i would get a rebuild kit for the marvel and put it back stock. The tsx linkage really does not fit this model anyway. Problem? I have 3 different parts kits. I have tried a variety of float valve and seats, with a new float, and no matter what i do this carb overflows.
I've taken the carb off 6 times and adjusted the float level, up to the point where i built a "test" station on my bench. Still overflows. The only thing i have done is change the fuel line to 5/16's to match an in line 2nd. fuel filter. I"M STUMPED. Anyone have this happen to them?? ,ORiginal valve (i think) on the right pic, cheap china replacement next to it. I also looked at the casting thinking maybe this carb has a crack in it but heck i can't see anything there either. Ideas guys?

in the pic u sent it lools like the float is not proper. it has to be leval with the carb body by bending the metal tab up or down to be leval with the carb body.

 

[onetotaltoolman]

Jamie : thanks for the tips. I did re-adjust the floats again. Now at a place where maybe i get a drip , once per day.
i am completely finished with the re-build, so i have to do some other stuff. i think i'll come back to this and make a minor adjustment
to the floats and i think that will be the end of it. Appreciate your input.