1953 Super H water in oil

[CochiseIH]

I'm getting water in the oil pan. After a few hours running and letting it sit for a couple days I'll get about a pint of water out the oil drain plug before oil shows up. I replaced the head gasket but did not resurface or inspect the head for cracks. Also didn't see any obvious leak path across the gasket. On reassembly, the leak is still there. If the block needs to be removed I'm not going to attempt this repair but anything in frame I'm set up to do. Is there a way to diagnose where the leak is? I read the H has dry sleeves but the Super H has wet sleeves (o-ring). Is that right? I'm thinking I will:
1). pull the pan, pressurize the radiator, look for leaks around the sleeves. If not,
2). pull the head and have it resurfaced and inspected for cracks.

Make sense? Are there other things to look for? Where is the most likely leak point?

 

[Janicholson]

I'm getting water in the oil pan. After a few hours running and letting it sit for a couple days I'll get about a pint of water out the oil drain plug before oil shows up. I replaced the head gasket but did not resurface or inspect the head for cracks. Also didn't see any obvious leak path across the gasket. On reassembly, the leak is still there. If the block needs to be removed I'm not going to attempt this repair but anything in frame I'm set up to do. Is there a way to diagnose where the leak is? I read the H has dry sleeves but the Super H has wet sleeves (o-ring). Is that right? I'm thinking I will:
1). pull the pan, pressurize the radiator, look for leaks around the sleeves. If not,
2). pull the head and have it resurfaced and inspected for cracks.

Make sense? Are there other things to look for? Where is the most likely leak point?

It has the same dry type sleeves (different size). Looking into the cylinders with a endoscope (cheap smart phone adapter for remote video) to look in the sparkplug holes, and reading the plugs is first. Then pulling the oil pan is the most sure way of looking for leaks. A cooling system pressurizer is needed. From underneath, the coolant can come from the very front, the edges of the sleeves between the sleeve and native block casting, or from the inside of the sleeve. Another possible drip can form from the cam area indicating a cracked head possible.

Do not operate the engine!!!

Antifreeze in the oil will not lubricate and the entire engine will be ruined. Jim

 

[used red MN]

Just to add, if you are in the know about the history of this tractor and there is no chance it has froze due to cold weather and lack of antifreeze then this will not apply. My uncles 300 that we had on the farm when I was growing up was unfortunately froze up once. It pushed the top of the head casting up and caused a coolant leak there. It was repaired by me at the shop I worked at by the “lock and stitch” method.
If the history of the tractor is unknown it may be easiest to pull the valve cover first for a quick look for cracks before pulling the pan.

 

[CochiseIH]

It has the same dry type sleeves (different size). Looking into the cylinders with a endoscope (cheap smart phone adapter for remote video) to look in the sparkplug holes, and reading the plugs is first. Then pulling the oil pan is the most sure way of looking for leaks. A cooling system pressurizer is needed. From underneath, the coolant can come from the very front, the edges of the sleeves between the sleeve and native block casting, or from the inside of the sleeve. Another possible drip can form from the cam area indicating a cracked head possible.

Do not operate the engine!!!

Antifreeze in the oil will not lubricate and the entire engine will be ruined. Jim

Thanks. Too late on operating the engine. There was quite a bit of water in the pan by the time I knew anything was wrong. My only clue was the tractor developed a slight rod knock.. oops.

 

[CochiseIH]

An odd thing, may be related. When I got the tractor, it never came up to operating temperature. I replaced the gauge to no effect. Then I changed the thermostat. When I took the old one out I could see that someone had mangled the internals so it was stuck open. Now I'm wondering if the previous owner did that so the cooling system would not pressurize and hence not leak into the crankcase?? I'm just trying to learn as much as I can before I start taking things apart.

 

[used red MN]

An odd thing, may be related. When I got the tractor, it never came up to operating temperature. I replaced the gauge to no effect. Then I changed the thermostat. When I took the old one out I could see that someone had mangled the internals so it was stuck open. Now I'm wondering if the previous owner did that so the cooling system would not pressurize and hence not leak into the crankcase?? I'm just trying to learn as much as I can before I start taking things apart.

Sorry missed welcoming you, so CochiseIH welcome to YT! So a direct question, have you operated this tractor for a some time without the problem of water getting in the oil? Or are you still in the initial stages of making it reliable and repairing problems you find. Maybe easier to just ask how long have you had it?

 

[CochiseIH]

Thank you. I've had it 5 yrs. It runs about 10 hours per year mostly mowing 10 acres. It initially did not have water in the oil during oil change. That started about 2 yrs ago but it's hard to say because there is no evidence of the problem unless you are looking for it, and I wasn't, until I developed a rod knock. I'm not certain but the problem may have started after or around the time I replaced the jammed open thermostat from the previous owner. It's been a reliable tractor.

 

[used red MN]

Thank you. I've had it 5 yrs. It runs about 10 hours per year mostly mowing 10 acres. It initially did not have water in the oil during oil change. That started about 2 yrs ago but it's hard to say because there is no evidence of the problem unless you are looking for it, and I wasn't, until I developed a rod knock. I'm not certain but the problem may have started after or around the time I replaced the jammed open thermostat from the previous owner. It's been a reliable tractor.

Forgot to comment on the mention of the previous owner “fowling” the thermostat. For one disabling a thermostat will not keep a cooling system from pressuring up. In will reduce the frequency of it because it would likely only pressurize the system when you ran it a long time and worked it fairly hard. It would have been much easier to just run it with the radiator cap loose. Then before you came to look at it turn it tight to forgo any suspicion. Maybe in this case attempting a fix with stop leak may be in order. Here is a link to a recent post on the Ford 8N forum that gave recommendations for stop leaks that folks had good luck with. Post on stop leak
If you repaired the rod bearing maybe you want to use a more certain approach.
Just a bit off the cuff, is there any indication the tractor does not have the original engine? It should have C-164 cast into the engine somewhere behind the oil filter. If you see C-152 then a straight H engine has been installed or maybe it is not even a Super H. Early H engines had a small expansion plug under the front cover that can rust through and let water into to crankcase.
Edit to add: If you pull the pan to check for the leak turn the crank so the pistons are all up a bit from the bottom of the stroke. That way you can see if the leak is running down the cylinder wall or coming from between the sleeve and block. That is if that is the actual area the leak is shown coming from. Parent bore (block) leaks are rare on these, but can occur.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

Welcome! And pick #2. If you pull the head to replace head gasket have it checked magna fluxed or pressure tested.
Check head gasket over really good the second time it could be pinched or the head got set down uneven even if you think you got it landed right.
Ive had good luck with copper coat when putting the head gasket on. Some say yes some say no to that stuff it has worked for me applying it to the gasket only while its off the engine on a coat hanger. Id say it's my preferred flavor of snake oil over a stop leak product.
No wet sleeves on most red ones this age its most likely nothing to do with the block. You will likely find coolant leaking down the inside of the sleeve from the head gasket area or head itself if scoped.
Likely If the thermostat was disabled it was because he thought it was causing an overheat problem by being stuck closed which means also likely it was overheated. Which likely also means look at the head real good. I knew people who on dual thermostat systems would install one backwards supposedly to prevent one from failing. Im honestly not sure what that got them messing with the thermostat on anything is generally a bad idea. I have made a slightly larger bypass hole where the little plug usually is. Thats the only modification to consider and really it's questionable if that helps anything if your thermostat is sticking replace it.

 

[CochiseIH]

Thanks for your insights. I did try stop-leak (K-seal). I'm not certain but I don't think it worked. I only ran it for an hour. I'm trying to avoid running it more with the rod knock. One thing I did not do is re-torque the head after running it awhile. Not sure how important that is. It is a C164 engine. I don't think it's leaking into the cylinder because there is no water vapor or any other kind of visible "smoke" out the exhaust. One thing I'm puzzled about. Before I replaced the head gasket, the coolant level was low in the radiator. Makes sense. Now, the coolant level does not seem to have changed much but I did get about a pint of water out the drain plug. And, the stream of water out the drain plug looked pretty clear but the coolant in the radiator is quite green. Maybe it looks green when its in the radiator but if its a small drip or stream it looks more clear? I'm going to take some fluid out of the radiator with a syringe and see what the color looks like dripping it out. The volume is more than you could get from condensation so I don't know how it could get in the pan if not from the cooling system.

 

[caterpillar guy]

With a rod knocking and water in the pan it is time for the pan to come off. Then as already said look at the cylinders for fluid down the sides along with looking at the bearings. I would pull the rods and a main or 2 to see if they look scored from the water in them. IF the crank is rough it will need to be pulled and ground before it will hold a bearing on it. Also with the head off check for the sleeves setting the same height from one to another and for not being more than about .001-.0005 with not more than about a .0005 difference between them so they don't leak from one being high or low . This may be more than your bailiwick is comfortable with . If so it might become tractor or engine time for you. Contact some people that work on these old tractors as a hobby to help you with it.

 

[Red Mercury]

I have had a W-4 (Same engine as Farmall H) and Super W-6 with cracks in the parent bore of the block which would put a small amount of coolant in the oil. The W-4 actually cracked the sleeve too. I also have a Super WD-9 (also has dry sleeves) that I suspect has the same problem but I haven't pulled the oil pan. The Super WD-9 will put less than 4 ounces of coolant in the oil when sitting over the winter so I drain the coolant off in the spring. I have ran it this way for many years, much of it for heavy field work. The tractor has 12,000 hours on the engine and it doesn't seem to be hurting the bearings, but not really much coolant in the oil. Time will tell. It still runs like new and to my knowledge has never been rebuilt. The gas-start diesels are so expensive to fix and hard to find parts for I don't really want tear it down until I have to.....

I have never had a blown head gasket on any of my w-series tractors.

 

[txdutchman]

Did it rain a lot? My M gets water in the oil if it's parked outside in the rain. I have not figured out yet where the water enters the engine but it does. And yes, exhaust was always covered when outside.

 

[Janicholson]

Did it rain a lot? My M gets water in the oil if it's parked outside in the rain. I have not figured out yet where the water enters the engine but it does. And yes, exhaust was always covered when outside.

escussionA known place for water entry is the exhaust pipe connection to the manifold. They can be leaking even if looking good. One of the escussions shown in the link, with a light coating of furnace cement on the inside, and a couple of screws w nuts to hold it in place would shed water there. (it does happen!!!

 

[txdutchman]

escussionA known place for water entry is the exhaust pipe connection to the manifold. They can be leaking even if looking good. One of the escussions shown in the link, with a light coating of furnace cement on the inside, and a couple of screws w nuts to hold it in place would shed water there. (it does happen!!!

Yes, I need to do that for sure. Pipe is somewhat loose but will not unscrew. In the past I always had all them inside but since we moved about 2 years ago they all have to stay outside except the one I'm working on. I need to get me a shed built. Not that it rains much out here.

 

[tomtinker]

Did it rain a lot? My M gets water in the oil if it's parked outside in the rain. I have not figured out yet where the water enters the engine but it does. And yes, exhaust was always covered when outside.

Is the screwed in manifold outlet pipe tight or loose.

Yes, I need to do that for sure. Pipe is somewhat loose but will not unscrew. In the past I always had all them inside but since we moved about 2 years ago they all have to stay outside except the one I'm working on. I need to get me a shed built. Not that it rains much out here.

I use two plastic 5 gallon buckets , cut a hole in one big enough to slid down over muffler, leave the other one whole put on top of muffler. Cozy and dry if you have a short stack. Also extends muffler lifespan.
,

 

[CochiseIH]

Did it rain a lot? My M gets water in the oil if it's parked outside in the rain. I have not figured out yet where the water enters the engine but it does. And yes, exhaust was always covered when outside.

How would rain make it into the pan? Wouldn't it just go through an exhaust valve and into a cylinder or two? Would piston rings seal? I don't think I'm imagining the water out of the pan looks clear and the coolant is quite green. The exhaust pipe connection to the manifold is quite loose. It just sits in the hole not threaded or sealed in any way, and rusty.

 

[used red MN]

Piston rings have end gaps. They also have side clearance in the ring grooves. The rings by design also rely on the compression pressure and vacuum along with piston movement to help them seal against either the top or bottom ledge of the piston groove. They are not an air or water tight seal.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

Well you are both right! A lot of our old tractors crankcases smell like gas so proof that it happens like used red mn says. But I have a couple fun pictures of what happens when the original poster is right. This was my tractor at the time so I can post pictures of this one for once. It was a 2510 I pulled out of someones grove really rough you can see behind the toolbox in the one picture never had a rain cap on. Water goes all the way down the hole and meanders past the rings until freezing weather and thaw and refreeze. First picture is what happens when the water is trapped in a cylinder so one would assume exhaust valve open cylinder 2. Picture 2 is what it took to fix it. And picture 3 is proof that even after all that you can recover from about anything. This caused a split liner, block needed cleaned up but did not crack it. It bent the crank when it froze. It took 2 tries to get it one at home with the liners and it still turned over hard I had to move to the real shop and put it on the engine stand.
Purchase those slappers, cover the manifold like they say, and at the very least put that empty can on top and check its still there!!
I believe a dry sleeve doesn't have the free space gap around it and should be less likely to be affected by freezing but still its not good. Who knows if it was bad enough it could crack a block!

 

[CochiseIH]

Seems like the problem is rain or condensation. I have the pan, manifold and valve cover off with the radiator pressurized to 7 psi and not a drip anywhere, but maybe it only leaks when hot?? The water from the drain was pretty clear, not at all the green of the coolant. I put some 50/50 water/coolant in a mason jar, filled it with SAE30, shook it up real good and after it settled the water and coolant at the bottom were still dissolved and bright green. It's hard to see how to get that much water as it doesn't rain a lot. If it is coming from the exhaust into the manifold (very sloppy connection) I don't see why there is not rust in the cylinders? Where is the crankcase vent, if there is one? I think I'll just leave the head on for now, replace the rod bearings, throw a tarp over it and see how it goes. I don't see how to get at the rear main bearing but I may just replace the other two, or at least look at them. Sorry, one more question for you. The sound I hear is a typical rod knock sound. Could that also come from the piston to rod connection? I wasn't planning to pull the pistons. Cylinders look good, doesn't smoke, etc.