6000 project, update #4 (the saga continues)

[Bern]

So I get my 6000 to the point where I can hop in the seat, put it in gear, and drive it outside to finish painting the rear end. Problem is, when I let the clutch out, nothing happened. I can clearly hear the transmission shifting, and I know for a fact that the driveline coupler is engaged.

I take out the rear axle fill plug and look inside with a flashlight. I can clearly see the pinion coupler spinning as I let the clutch out. I figure the problem HAS to be in the diffy because I've already been through both final drives when I put new axle shaft seals in earlier. I had to tear down the finals down to check and re-adjust the axle bearings, which were quite loose. I also put speedi-sleeves on the axle shafts.

Fortunately, the LH final is the one that has to come off to get at the diffy, and it's conveniently accessible with my overhead hoist. Off comes the rear tire, then the final (oops, nope, gotta split the thing to get the final off to clear the frame rail), then out comes the diffy. Everything looks fine, so I split the diffy in half, figuring the spider gear cross is cracked or some such thing. Everything looks perfect inside the diffy, right down to the "NAA" part numbers on the spider gears! At this point, I think I'm starting to lose my sanity, and that maybe I should change careers or something.

After eating lunch and regaining my composure, I take a look at the exploded view of the final drive, thinking maybe I left something out or didn't get something tight. I concluded there was no possible way that anything was missing or loose. I even double checked to make sure the keys were installed on the axle shaft where it couples to the rear wheel. Yep, all was good there.

I spun the removed LH final drive by hand - everything felt good. I rocked the other RH final sun gear shaft back and forth because the final housing was still installed, with the tire on the ground. All felt normal. Visions of checking myself into an insane asylum start to fill my head.

I figured something HAD to be slipping inside, so I grabbed the RH sun gear shaft one more time and gave it a really hard twist, and it moved, but the tire did not! I knew that the final drive gears were all good and in place, so I reasoned to myself that it could only be one other, very unlikely, thing - a slipping ring gear.

Now the problem is, the final is on the RH side, out of reach of my hoist. I envision putting the LH final and tire back on and trying to twist the entire assembly 180 degrees, and hurting or killing myself in the process (that whole thing is HEAVY!).

I then went and grabbed a 1.5 ton transmission jack, placed it under the drawbar hanger and PTO box, and cinched it down real tight with a chain and two straps. I lifted the whole rear axle housing off the ground, tires and all, then spun the whole works around so I could get at the RH final with my hoist.

I pull the tire and final off, then the brakes. The ring gear appears normal, however I can spin it with a punch. Turns out there are 3 dowel pins that anchor it to the case, and each one of them had backed out. All I gotta do now is line the holes back up, drive the pins all the way back in, and figure out a way to keep them from backing out again. I had originally assumed that the pins broke, but that was not the case, they had simply backed out.

I bought this tractor after it had been sitting for 20 years because it all of a sudden "stopped moving". The former owner told me that it was diagnosed to him as a stripped SOS input shaft, and I had no way of verifying that because the engine was seized. After pulling the engine and then the tranny out, I discovered two things: 1) the SOS input shaft was not stripped, and 2) the rear axle disengagement coupler was not adjusted properly. Figuring that was the original problem all along, I went merrily on my way with the engine rebuild until I hopped in the seat the other day and put it in gear.

So, the original problem all this time was a slipping final drive ring gear. When's the last time you ever seen that on a Ford? Me neither!

 

[Billy NY]

The things you find or uncover. It will be interesting to see what you come up with to retain those pins.

 

[Dieseltech]

Darn, that's a bummer. I wonder if the axle ring gears fit loose in the commander series? The 6000 service book calls for a special tool to press the gear in/out of the housing. Can the three pins be removed, then punch the gear around to see that all three gear holes line up? May only be one place all three align for best pin fit. Still a good thing the SOS input shaft was OK..

 

[showcrop]

Were the pins supposed to be staked?

 

[shaun wallace]

Back in 70s When at Trainers in Princeton Mo. seen couple do that. Machine shop just drilled new holes in ring gear and used oversize pins. Had one that spun so much just replaced the complete side.

 

[Bern]

I figured it was a 6000 only issue. Ford must have dramatically increased the press fit for the "new" 5000 series.

 

[Bern]

Not according to the manual. It appears that the pin's ability to stay put relied entirely on their press
fit in the housing, because it takes a slide hammer and some good whacks to remove them. I'll be loctiting
and staking them when I put them back in. I'm sure that'll be good enough for the rest of this machine's
life.

 

[Bern]

You nailed it, and that's what had me fooled. The service manual shows a special tool and a "minimum 10-ton press" to remove the ring gear, so the thought of that thing moving around in there was the furthest thing from my mind. Obviously, the press fit is not as much as later machines (e.g. 4000, 5000, 8000, 9000), likely because they wanted the ring gear to be serviceable in the field.

I plan to do exactly as you say, which is rotate the ring gear until I find the original alignment, and then drive the pins back in. When I pulled all 3 pins out, 2 came out hard and one came out relatively easily, although it still needed a slide hammer.

 

[Bern]

I'm just gonna loctite and then stake the housing over the top of them. It'll be good enough for the rest of this machine's pampered life. Oh, and I'll be sure to drive the other side pins in as well.

 

[Ultradog MN]

Bern,
Can you link to the CNH page that shows where those pins are located?

 

[Bern]

#32.

To the best of my knowledge, the 6000 is the only Ford that "featured" these pins. I wouldn't be looking for them on your 4000.
Pins

 

[Dieseltech]

I wonder if any Ford dealer might have the pin drill tools anymore? I'm going to look at my working 6000 and see if the pins are working out, may have to drill/tap near the pins and bolt on some home made pin retainer straps. My 6000 has a harsh 4-5 shift, that probably doesn't help the pin life any..

 

[Dopp Creek]

I'm glad you figured it out. You are a true mechanic. "This cannot be happening, yet it is happening"... Whatever you had for lunch, tell us so we can all stock up. Winter projects are coming soon.

 

[Bern]

I doubt any dealer is going to have tools that old. And besides, it wouldn't be too hard to fashion up something on your own. The factory tool is nothing more than a fancy drill centering guide and depth stop so you don't drill clear through the ring gear.

I started by cleaning up the holes as best I could. I could clearly see that the ring gear holes were wallowed out some (first pic below). It is not very well designed because the pin is only one inch long, and the casting itself takes up over 3/4 of that depth. The usable hole depth (not counting the drill chamfer) in the ring gear was less than 1/4". As you can see in the second pic, you can't drill too deep into that ring gear or you'll strike the teeth.

After much pondering and assessing of the situation, I decided to go with my old standby, JB Weld. I mixed up a batch and took a small screwdriver and spread it inside the wallowed portion like frosting on a cake. Before I did that though, I drilled a 1/8" hole all the way through the pins so that they wouldn't hydro-lock when I drove them in. The pins were already drilled 3/4 of the way through for the puller threads, so it was an easy task.

As I drove the pins in, I could tell that they still had a good press fit in the housing. I could also feel the difference as the pin entered the damaged area, as I had to give it some extra whack. Some JB squirted out the hole, so I know it's packed in there good.

The pins ultimately all ended up being a little below flush. Recession varied slightly between the 3 of them because I'm sure the casting thicknesses vary on the outside. So I'd say as long as yours are below flush, you should be fine. One of mine was originally sticking out about 1/8". They're all about 1/8" below flush now, give or take 50 thou.

I'll finish it off by staking around the hole as an added measure of security.

 

[Bern]

It was either figure it out, or have the thing hauled away for scrap. Of course, if I were really smart, I would have done the latter about a year ago!

 

[Ultradog MN]

Thanks.
Seeing it vs reading about it makes all the difference though I could tell it was very unlike a 4000.

 

[Dopp Creek]

I'm curious about them working out, seemingly simultaneously. I would think one or two would work loose and the third would get jammed/pinched by the rotating ring gear. Sounds like all three are smooth and in good shape, as you can drive them back in. Just doesn't seem possible to me, and you as well, as it was the last place you would look. Might I suggest Loctite 660 Quik-Metal when you re-set them. We used it on crankshaft dowels and it did not come apart.

 

[Bern]

I posted some pictures down below in response to Dieseltech. The holes in the ring gear were definitely egged out because it somehow came loose and started battering back and forth in there, but there would have been no way for the pins to cock in the bore and get jammed up because they were still very tight in the bore of the housing, meaning there was no way the pin could cock.

The pins themselves all looked fine. I used some JB Weld to fill in the gaps in the ring gear (again, see reply to Dieseltech). I've done some amazing things in the past with JB Weld, and I'm pretty sure it will work for me again this time. I hope to have it mobile tomorrow after it dries.

 

[ErnieD]

Possible to drill a hole straddling both the pin and casting? Then drill and tap for a set screw.

 

[Bern]

I'm sure it's possible, but way too much work given the limited amount of use this machine will see for the rest of its days. I feel pretty good about the repair I did yesterday.