656 Gas Hydro Blown Head Gasket and Holy Valve

[Janicholson]

Here we go again. Round 2.
View attachment 64709

I may be completely off base, but I have understood that the head gasket needed to be on the sleeve flange to seal. Yours is certainly not being compressed by the sleeve. Jim

 

[Janicholson]

I may be completely off base, but I have understood that the head gasket needed to be on the sleeve flange to seal. Yours is certainly not being compressed by the sleeve. Jim

YT parts link

PartASAP gasket is shown as round cylinder holes, not oblong I think this is critical!

 

[RedMVa]

YT parts link

PartASAP gasket is shown as round cylinder holes, not oblong I think this is critical!

I just finished up a 706 with a 263 today, gasket just like op’s. Exact match to the one that came off of it. Not sure what the one in your link is.

 

[Janicholson]

I just finished up a 706 with a 263 today, gasket just like op’s. Exact match to the one that came off of it. Not sure what the one in your link is.

The parts list indicates it is for that engine! Jim

 

[RedMVa]

The parts list indicates it is for that engine! Jim

That’s funny cause I got my gasket from asap and it didn’t look like that

 

[wore out]

The parts list indicates it is for that engine! Jim

On the contrary, it states: "Compatible with International Engine(s) D236 (Diesel), D282 (Diesel)".

 

[RedMVa]

On the contrary, it states: "Compatible with International Engine(s) D236 (Diesel), D282 (Diesel)".

Yep this^^^ lol, I should’ve scrolled down on the link. Right tractor but wrong gasket for his tractor

 

[caterpillar guy]

Have you checked the top of the block for flat. I like a good known straight edge, then with a light check you can't see light under it anyplace. If you do then check with feeler gauge for how much gap is there. Light will come through where a feeler gauge will not. It just tells you how good the top is . By the looks of the top of the block through the holes between the sleeves there it looks rough, like it is not smooth with an orange peel look to it. That could also be part of your sealing problem. does the gasket show a top or bottom to it. Yes some are labeled top on them or have directions how they want them on. It could be flipped end for end and still look ok maybe. I'm not there to see if things align right or not if flipped. I'm also not liking the way it looks like it sets on top of the edge of the sleeves on a few of them in the picture. IF you have any sleeve protrusion and the gasket is setting on top of the sleeves like it looks like that would make it leak terribly. Have you also checked that the guide pins can fit completely into the head or block without bottoming into the hole at either end . They could hold it up just enough to make a leak . The more I look at that gasket fit around those sleeves the less I like it. right between the cylinders. Looking at your valvews in the head some of them look like thay are set just a bit higher in the head than some of the others are just looking at the depth in the head. They are not much and would not be the cause of the leak. Has the head been magna fluxed when it was in for work. I would expect any place worth their salt would automatically do that when it was cleaned up before working further on it to see about cracks. Not trying to criticize here just looking for possibilities with all the problems you are having. The gasket setting on the protrusion portion is what I seeing in the picture no the flange around the outside. Reason for mentioning this is the head has to come down tight to the gasket and the sleeve at the same time to seal also holding the sleeve down in the block so it does not work in the bore of the block. Call me if you need more thought on this or have more questions 989 413 5684 .

 

[tstoub77]

Have you checked the top of the block for flat. I like a good known straight edge, then with a light check you can't see light under it anyplace. If you do then check with feeler gauge for how much gap is there. Light will come through where a feeler gauge will not. It just tells you how good the top is . By the looks of the top of the block through the holes between the sleeves there it looks rough, like it is not smooth with an orange peel look to it. That could also be part of your sealing problem. does the gasket show a top or bottom to it. Yes some are labeled top on them or have directions how they want them on. It could be flipped end for end and still look ok maybe. I'm not there to see if things align right or not if flipped. I'm also not liking the way it looks like it sets on top of the edge of the sleeves on a few of them in the picture. IF you have any sleeve protrusion and the gasket is setting on top of the sleeves like it looks like that would make it leak terribly. Have you also checked that the guide pins can fit completely into the head or block without bottoming into the hole at either end . They could hold it up just enough to make a leak . The more I look at that gasket fit around those sleeves the less I like it. right between the cylinders. Looking at your valvews in the head some of them look like thay are set just a bit higher in the head than some of the others are just looking at the depth in the head. They are not much and would not be the cause of the leak. Has the head been magna fluxed when it was in for work. I would expect any place worth their salt would automatically do that when it was cleaned up before working further on it to see about cracks. Not trying to criticize here just looking for possibilities with all the problems you are having. The gasket setting on the protrusion portion is what I seeing in the picture no the flange around the outside. Reason for mentioning this is the head has to come down tight to the gasket and the sleeve at the same time to seal also holding the sleeve down in the block so it does not work in the bore of the block. Call me if you need more thought on this or have more questions 989 413 5684 .

Thanks for all the info. The way the gasket fit really threw me for a loop too but it is like the one that came off and only fits one way.

 

[tstoub77]

Have you checked the top of the block for flat. I like a good known straight edge, then with a light check you can't see light under it anyplace. If you do then check with feeler gauge for how much gap is there. Light will come through where a feeler gauge will not. It just tells you how good the top is . By the looks of the top of the block through the holes between the sleeves there it looks rough, like it is not smooth with an orange peel look to it. That could also be part of your sealing problem. does the gasket show a top or bottom to it. Yes some are labeled top on them or have directions how they want them on. It could be flipped end for end and still look ok maybe. I'm not there to see if things align right or not if flipped. I'm also not liking the way it looks like it sets on top of the edge of the sleeves on a few of them in the picture. IF you have any sleeve protrusion and the gasket is setting on top of the sleeves like it looks like that would make it leak terribly. Have you also checked that the guide pins can fit completely into the head or block without bottoming into the hole at either end . They could hold it up just enough to make a leak . The more I look at that gasket fit around those sleeves the less I like it. right between the cylinders. Looking at your valvews in the head some of them look like thay are set just a bit higher in the head than some of the others are just looking at the depth in the head. They are not much and would not be the cause of the leak. Has the head been magna fluxed when it was in for work. I would expect any place worth their salt would automatically do that when it was cleaned up before working further on it to see about cracks. Not trying to criticize here just looking for possibilities with all the problems you are having. The gasket setting on the protrusion portion is what I seeing in the picture no the flange around the outside. Reason for mentioning this is the head has to come down tight to the gasket and the sleeve at the same time to seal also holding the sleeve down in the block so it does not work in the bore of the block. Call me if you need more thought on this or have more questions 989 413 5684 .

Thanks for all the info. The way the gasket fit really threw me for a loop too but it is like the one that came off and only fits one way.

 

[tstoub77]

Done! First start tonight went well, no leaks. Coppercoat, reworking the head again, and giving some time between torquing 65 and 90 as suggested were all implemented. I did put enough water in the fill the block and head before starting tonight. I’ll put the fan assembly back together and top off the coolant tomorrow for the hot torque and valve adjustment. Thanks to all for the feedback.

 

[rustred]

that head gasket sure don't look right to me. i would be doing more investigating before installing that one. it must seal on the sleeve lip. and for the diesel models 236, 282, it is definitely wrong. they are round and seal on the sleeve. can't go by the old one anyhow as who knows what was put in there before. unless u had a first time tear down engine. so i looked it up in the ih parts book, and its ROUND. also the gas and diesel engines use different gaskets.

 

[Janicholson]

Done! First start tonight went well, no leaks. Coppercoat, reworking the head again, and giving some time between torquing 65 and 90 as suggested were all implemented. I did put enough water in the fill the block and head before starting tonight. I’ll put the fan assembly back together and top off the coolant tomorrow for the hot torque and valve adjustment. Thanks to all for the feedback.

View attachment 64848

It does not need to be warmed up completely, just 5 min. of running. no need to burn hands. Jim

 

[used red MN]

that head gasket sure don't look right to me. i would be doing more investigating before installing that one. it must seal on the sleeve lip. and for the diesel models 236, 282, it is definitely wrong. they are round and seal on the sleeve. can't go by the old one anyhow as who knows what was put in there before. unless u had a first time tear down engine. so i looked it up in the ih parts book, and its ROUND. also the gas and diesel engines use different gaskets.

rr, while in general I am sure they try to depict the proper look of things in the parts book, I would not necessarily say those drawings are court room evidence of what is right or wrong. The OP says it matched the one he took out as did RedM in reply 43. You may be right, maybe the design was changed along the way. It could be that the same modified gasket might fit some of the 6 cylinder truck engines. This style of gasket does appear to be the only one available for this gas application.

 

[rustred]

does that oblong gasket look right to you? parts books are pretty exact. they are not drawings, they are photo's. so if its not the only one available why not source out the correct one. and yes i saw them say they have the same gasket, but i am saying its not correct. and i saw someone said it diesel compatible,... well that is totally wrong. that diesel gasket is a must to seal on the sleeve lip. you is something wrong with me proving stuff. , you should be resourcing this to prove me wrong which i dont mind at all . just because some manufacturer is making them gaskets i am saying dont mean they are made correctly. and to trust Fel-Pro is something to be desired. same deal as ihc has in their parts books, R1, R2, AND R3 which means upgraded. and one more thing, with this oblong gasket it will lower your compression. and i can also see he had the same oblong gasket in this engine before by looking at his photos. i like to know the why's.

 

[RedMVa]

rr, while in general I am sure they try to depict the proper look of things in the parts book, I would not necessarily say those drawings are court room evidence of what is right or wrong. The OP says it matched the one he took out as did RedM in reply 43. You may be right, maybe the design was changed along the way. It could be that the same modified gasket might fit some of the 6 cylinder truck engines. This style of gasket does appear to be the only one available for this gas application.

Well the 706 263 I just did was done at a supposedly very good IH dealership year’s ago ( this according to the man that bought it there) and it was a victor gasket on it. The gasket I put on from asap was an exact match to the victor. I really don’t know why a diesel gasket is even mentioned except that’s what was in that link cause we’re talking about gas engines

 

[used red MN]

Well the 706 263 I just did was done at a supposedly very good IH dealership year’s ago ( this according to the man that bought it there) and it was a victor gasket on it. The gasket I put on from asap was an exact match to the victor. I really don’t know why a diesel gasket is even mentioned except that’s what was in that link cause we’re talking about gas engines

Well with Jim having 40k plus posts I suppose a few can be allowed with some mistakes. Of course not everyone with 40k plus post will admit mistakes may have been made!

 

[rustred]

Well with Jim having 40k plus posts I suppose a few can be allowed with some mistakes. Of course not everyone with 40k plus post will admit mistakes may have been made!

that is why i asked about that gasket, as you are always sourcing stuff. if i am wrong no problem . and ya i got 40k plus posts also and will admit when i am wrong, as correct info is more important than a post count.

 

[used red MN]

does that oblong gasket look right to you? parts books are pretty exact. they are not drawings, they are photo's. so if its not the only one available why not source out the correct one. and yes i saw them say they have the same gasket, but i am saying its not correct. and i saw someone said it diesel compatible,... well that is totally wrong. that diesel gasket is a must to seal on the sleeve lip. you is something wrong with me proving stuff. , you should be resourcing this to prove me wrong which i dont mind at all . just because some manufacturer is making them gaskets i am saying dont mean they are made correctly. and to trust Fel-Pro is something to be desired. same deal as ihc has in their parts books, R1, R2, AND R3 which means upgraded. and one more thing, with this oblong gasket it will lower your compression. and i can also see he had the same oblong gasket in this engine before by looking at his photos. i like to know the why's.

No, I agree it does not look right. That does not mean I can immediately say it is wrong and won’t work. It looks like the gasket fire ring catches the majority of the sleeve flange (1/2 way around) on the right side (opposite of oil filter) so that should hold the sleeve down. That may in fact put some additional stress on the sleeve because it does also look like the fire ring does not set on the sleeve flange on the oil filter side. This could tend to increase the temp of the sleeve material due to it not being held in contact with the block to transfer the heat out of it. I would surmise that is partly due to the fact that this gasket is also used on the 301 with a larger bore. Right or wrong I don’t know, in my opinion it certainly leans towards “poor design” Where do you see a photo of the gasket shown neither CNHI or Messicks have photos. What you posted is a drawing my friend. I agree about the diesel gasket fire ring needs to seal on the sleeve flange or failure would be likely. The compression change due to that difference is minimal in this gas application, I doubt it would change it 0.01 to 0.02 of a point. In a diesel with a much smaller effective combustion chamber, this deviation would be more of a concern. I don’t necessarily seek you out to say your wrong, you just like to come in with your “heavy handed opinion” blazing with rarely any deviation. Okay, your good, and yes you have been around the block but.. I don’t know what else to say. Other than it is more fun when you immediately “unhinge” like a Tasmanian Devil. (aka type Looney Tunes) Here’s Taz!

 

[rustred]

No, I agree it does not look right. That does not mean I can immediately say it is wrong and won’t work. It looks like the gasket fire ring catches the majority of the sleeve flange (1/2 way around) on the right side (opposite of oil filter) so that should hold the sleeve down. That may in fact put some additional stress on the sleeve because it does also look like the fire ring does not set on the sleeve flange on the oil filter side. This could tend to increase the temp of the sleeve material due to it not being held in contact with the block to transfer the heat out of it. I would surmise that is partly due to the fact that this gasket is also used on the 301 with a larger bore. Right or wrong I don’t know, in my opinion it certainly leans towards “poor design” Where do you see a photo of the gasket shown neither CNHI or Messicks have photos. What you posted is a drawing my friend. I agree about the diesel gasket fire ring needs to seal on the sleeve flange or failure would be likely. The compression change due to that difference is minimal in this gas application, I doubt it would change it 0.01 to 0.02 of a point. In a diesel with a much smaller effective combustion chamber, this deviation would be more of a concern. I don’t necessarily seek you out to say your wrong, you just like to come in with your “heavy handed opinion” blazing with rarely any deviation. Okay, your good, and yes you have been around the block but.. I don’t know what else to say. Other than it is more fun when you immediately “unhinge” like a Tasmanian Devil. (aka type Looney Tunes) Here’s Taz!

where was i unhinged??? i was asking questions geez.