Ford 4000 SU Diesel. Is engine oil age an issue even if hours on that oil are low?

[gmcinnes]

Gentlemen: I have a 1975 Ford 4000 Diesel. I bought it 4 years ago and job one was flushing and changing all the fluids / filters.

Now, this is a utility tractor that I certainly put less than 100 hours on a year. Maybe even less than 50.

The maintenance specs for the engine oil say to change it at 300 hours and I know I haven't reached that. But the fluids are now 4 years old. Now, I know that prissy modern car engines ask for oil changes after a year or so, regardless of how much milage is put on the engine. But does that apply to these 3 cylinders of fury with more torque than brains? The oil still looks and smells clean. It doesn't have that lovely syrupy black look and sooty smell that I enjoy when changing my diesel car oil

Normally I wouldn't ask and just go ahead, but I just spent $330 at Tractor supply on 4 gallons of Rotella, a filter, and 15 gallons of Universal Fluid. I'd rather unspend it if the consensus is that age of the oil isn't an issue.

Same question about hydraulic fluid too.

 

[Harry in Ky]

Others may disagree (and probably will) but my opinion, for what it's worth, the motor oil I would change. The hydraulic and transmission fluids I would not change unless they look particularly nasty.

 

[Destroked 450]

My haying tractors don’t get 300 hrs per year, more like 150-200, I change them yearly
Some of my utility tractors may see less than 100 hrs, I’ll change them every 2-3 years
Hydraulic fluid gets changed when it gets milky which averages around 5-7 years for me
If you keep it in a shed I won’t worry about the age of the oil but probably wouldn’t wait till 300 hrs, maybe 150 or every 3 years or when it starts getting dirty

 

[Sean in PA]

I change the motor oil in all of my equipment yearly if they don't get enough miles or hours to reach the manufacturer's recommended oil change cycle in a year. It's cheap insurance. Running an engine, even once after an oil change, causes the oil to become acidic from the byproducts of combustion, and the more it is run, the more acidic it becomes, so running for even 50 hours in a year causes the oil to become pretty acidic. So even if there's not a lot of dirt or other contamination in the oil, it is still bad for the internal parts due to the acidity. Changing the oil yearly reduces the acidity of the oil and so reduces the long-term damage to the internal parts of the engine, like the bearings.

 

[Destroked 450]

I’ve never seen bearings damaged from acidity
Been working on a friends 990 David Brown, new rings and bearings, engine had never been apart
It’s his late dads tractor that sees very little use, hasn’t had more than two oil changes in the past 15 years, bearings showed dirt contamination but otherwise looked good

 

[Keith Williams]

I change the motor oil in all of my equipment yearly if they don't get enough miles or hours to reach the manufacturer's recommended oil change cycle in a year. It's cheap insurance. Running an engine, even once after an oil change, causes the oil to become acidic from the byproducts of combustion, and the more it is run, the more acidic it becomes, so running for even 50 hours in a year causes the oil to become pretty acidic. So even if there's not a lot of dirt or other contamination in the oil, it is still bad for the internal parts due to the acidity. Changing the oil yearly reduces the acidity of the oil and so reduces the long-term damage to the internal parts of the engine, like the bearings.

I believe this is not as big a problem as it used to be since the mandate to ULTRA LOW SULFUR DIESEL.
The sulfur in the combustion chamber created H2SO4 Sulfuric Acid.
YMMV

 

[Btzj02]

Due to what Sean said I changed oil every year before the motorcycle was put away for the winter. Now all my equipment gets an engine oil change once a year and hydraulic oil more based on condition of oil.

 

[Keith Williams]

Gentlemen: I have a 1975 Ford 4000 Diesel. I bought it 4 years ago and job one was flushing and changing all the fluids / filters.

Now, this is a utility tractor that I certainly put less than 100 hours on a year. Maybe even less than 50.

The maintenance specs for the engine oil say to change it at 300 hours and I know I haven't reached that. But the fluids are now 4 years old. Now, I know that prissy modern car engines ask for oil changes after a year or so, regardless of how much milage is put on the engine. But does that apply to these 3 cylinders of fury with more torque than brains? The oil still looks and smells clean. It doesn't have that lovely syrupy black look and sooty smell that I enjoy when changing my diesel car oil

Normally I wouldn't ask and just go ahead, but I just spent $330 at Tractor supply on 4 gallons of Rotella, a filter, and 15 gallons of Universal Fluid. I'd rather unspend it if the consensus is that age of the oil isn't an issue.

Same question about hydraulic fluid too.

I am going thru and changing Engine fluids on all my tractors right now. I never go the full 300 hours. I always thought that I change oil at 5000 miles on my cars (used to be 3000). I read (and agree) that an average miles per hour on a car engine was about 40. So, 100 hours would be around 4000 miles.
My 78 4600 Diesel had 60 hours after 2 years. I changed it.
My 64 4000 Gas has 36 hours after 4 years. I am going to finally change it too.
MY 74 2000 Gas I changed. It does not have an hour meter. This was a new to me tractor and the oil was getting dark.

The Hydraulic fluids have a change interval of 600 hours. I just top them off every year and check that they are clean and clear.
I am guessing I go at least 10 years on those. They are kept in a barn and see no weather.

If you store them outside that may affect your decisions.
Keith

 

[sotxbill]

Gentlemen: I have a 1975 Ford 4000 Diesel. I bought it 4 years ago and job one was flushing and changing all the fluids / filters.

Now, this is a utility tractor that I certainly put less than 100 hours on a year. Maybe even less than 50.

The maintenance specs for the engine oil say to change it at 300 hours and I know I haven't reached that. But the fluids are now 4 years old. Now, I know that prissy modern car engines ask for oil changes after a year or so, regardless of how much milage is put on the engine. But does that apply to these 3 cylinders of fury with more torque than brains? The oil still looks and smells clean. It doesn't have that lovely syrupy black look and sooty smell that I enjoy when changing my diesel car oil

Normally I wouldn't ask and just go ahead, but I just spent $330 at Tractor supply on 4 gallons of Rotella, a filter, and 15 gallons of Universal Fluid. I'd rather unspend it if the consensus is that age of the oil isn't an issue.

Same question about hydraulic fluid too.

Due to the "tbn" of hd diesel oil (11.6), acid build up is no longer the problem that drives the oil change interval. Gas oils have a tbn of 7.7 which is very very neutral and they do require changes based on miles(hours) or time (less than a year). The HD diesel oils also contain additives that prevent clumping or forming any sludge, and the oils are refined to remove the heavy paraffin and waxes that cause sludge. The best thing you can do it to run it under a good load for 45 minutes or more to get the oil temps above 212 degrees each time/serveral times a year to boil off any moisture. Again this does not apply to light duty oils that need to be changed yearly. If so you can drive to 500 hr oil changes as recommended on the newer tractors, reflecting using a modern hd motor oil.

 

[JMOR]

As some have said, it is contamination with condensation, acids, dirt, etc., not "age", don't forget, it was a few million years old when you bought it.

 

[Eman85]

Pay it now or pay it later. Today is the last day but Rotella has a rebate on their oils, I got $20 back on a 5 gal bucket. I don't change my hydraulic/trans fluid every year but I do change the oil. For the price of a filter and a couple of gallons of oil I find it well worth the money.

 

[gmcinnes]

Thanks for all your advice guys. You're confirming what I already knew in my heart, but what I hoped wasn't true in my wallet

FWIW, the tractor is mostly stored indoors, but I'll admit to leaving in the field overnight sometimes if I can't get finished a job in a day, to avoid having to hitch and unhitch the implements.

I checked the transmission oil, and it's milky. Rear axle oil is clean.

What causes the water in the transmission oil? It can't be too much water because the fluid is still level with the fill plug.

I did just wash it relatively gently with the pressure washer. I'm renovating a couple of fields that are about 10% poison ivy, and I'm super sensitive. I get it from the tractor tires, and probably everywhere else on the machine.

The old boy that I bought this machine from was a pride in ownership kind of guy. It's been maintained perfectly. He had it trailered 80 miles every year to a shop that specialized in old Fords. It's not a museum piece though it was always a working tractor.

We likely all feel the same here, but I'd take this over any new machine. There's very little I can't fix with a set of wrenches, screwdrivers and a lot of stubbornness

Speaking of which... I have another inquiry about manuals, but I'll start a new thread to make it easier to find.

 

[Sean in PA]

Most water contamination is due to condensation after running the tractor and it cools off. The trans and rear axle are vented to the outside air, so condensation can get into both, and working the tractor hard should heat things up and drive the condensation out. If you do not work it hard, then the water in the fluid increases over time. When the tractor is not worked hard, the transmission will still get warmer than the rear axle, but not enough to drive off the accumulated water, but the transmission will expand the air inside it more than the air inside cooler rear axle, and when the tractor cools down and the air outside is humid, the transmission will draw in more of that humid air as it cools due the the air inside having expanded more, so the transmission will get more condensation inside. Or it is possible, if you do not know the exact maintenance history, that the rear axle had its fluid changed more recently than the transmission.

 

[gmcinnes]

Most water contamination is due to condensation after running the tractor and it cools off. The trans and rear axle are vented to the outside air, so condensation can get into both, and working the tractor hard should heat things up and drive the condensation out. If you do not work it hard, then the water in the fluid increases over time. When the tractor is not worked hard, the transmission will still get warmer than the rear axle, but not enough to drive off the accumulated water, but the transmission will expand the air inside it more than the air inside cooler rear axle, and when the tractor cools down and the air outside is humid, the transmission will draw in more of that humid air as it cools due the the air inside having expanded more, so the transmission will get more condensation inside. Or it is possible, if you do not know the exact maintenance history, that the rear axle had its fluid changed more recently than the transmission.

I changed them both just under 4 years ago. Currently the rear axle oil looks closer to used engine oil. Dark brown, and a bit viscous. Not like gear oil, or heavyweight engine oil. But a bit thicker than fresh UTF.

I'm happy enough with the condensation explanation. That's what I figured too. It's really hard to even heat this old girl up. I can be out for hours in the sun, running it at 1800rpm to get 540rpm at the PTO, dragging the tiller through unbroken soil, and the radiator is still cool to the touch.

I must admit I'm guilty of idling her for too long.... The battery is weak, and sometimes she's hard to start, so I let her idle for an hour while I go off to do something else. But guess I won't be getting her a battery this year, since I blew the budget on UTF

 

[gmcinnes]

Well... After changing all the oils, there's one thing I've learned.... I'm too friggin old to be lifting 50lb gallons of fluid up and over all the obstructions from the loader. Especially after I've spilled a quart of fluid all over the tractor steps .

I need a drum pump for next time, I thought to myself.

Of course the next day I found the drum pump I bought last time I went through this and had the same issues

C'est la vie. Some day I'll find a way to organize my empire of dirt that lets me see what I actually have, instead of things buried in the way back of the cupboard.

Who am I kidding? I'll forget about it again in 3 years when I go do do this again.

It always seems weird to say "happy" memorial day. Appreciate the ones still with us, and spare a thought for the ones that died in the most senseless ways.

 

[Texasmark]

My haying tractors don’t get 300 hrs per year, more like 150-200, I change them yearly
Some of my utility tractors may see less than 100 hrs, I’ll change them every 2-3 years
Hydraulic fluid gets changed when it gets milky which averages around 5-7 years for me
If you keep it in a shed I won’t worry about the age of the oil but probably wouldn’t wait till 300 hrs, maybe 150 or every 3 years or when it starts getting dirty

I've about decided that looking at the color and consistency of oils is what will determine my oil change habits in the future. Getting somebody to come by my farm and pickup used oil has become a pain and an expensive....an expense one doesn't think about when you are on the "gotta change the oil" side of the equation.

I don't have access to the oil quality testing thing.....too lazy and cheap to investigate I guess......and have decided that I have been changing perfectly good oil just because an operator's manual says to do so......think about it......manuals are written for the WORLD's usage!!!!!!!

Example, I saw a picture of a Korean Rice Farmer stuck in the mud up to his fenders with a service truck out changing one of his fluids or refueling him........that is NOT my environment. Plus I may put a few hundred hours.....more like a hundred as I get older, on a machine in a year. I keep my stuff under cover, keeping the elements off and do keep my Zerks greased. I am getting a new perspective on my vehicle maintenance program.

 

[Texasmark]

I change the motor oil in all of my equipment yearly if they don't get enough miles or hours to reach the manufacturer's recommended oil change cycle in a year. It's cheap insurance. Running an engine, even once after an oil change, causes the oil to become acidic from the byproducts of combustion, and the more it is run, the more acidic it becomes, so running for even 50 hours in a year causes the oil to become pretty acidic. So even if there's not a lot of dirt or other contamination in the oil, it is still bad for the internal parts due to the acidity. Changing the oil yearly reduces the acidity of the oil and so reduces the long-term damage to the internal parts of the engine, like the bearings.

Well sir since the EPA has pretty much eliminated Sulphur in fuels and oils, thatcaused Sulphuric Acid (H2SO4) to form in combustion chambers and crankcases, one would think that the acid problems of the past are well behind us. I do remember yester-year where "Acid Rain" was a king sized problem and did this and that to the environment. I no longer see, or hear about that as a problem......case in point, I see some brands/types of motor oils are "guaranteed" for 10,000 miles in your cars crankcase........that's a pretty bold claim but obviously is backed as it comes from a major oil producer or so.....but just like for me....your equipment, your decision. gain or loss. Times and technology have changed.
Buttttt your equipment, your decision, as it is with me.

 

[Texasmark]

Thanks for all your advice guys. You're confirming what I already knew in my heart, but what I hoped wasn't true in my wallet

FWIW, the tractor is mostly stored indoors, but I'll admit to leaving in the field overnight sometimes if I can't get finished a job in a day, to avoid having to hitch and unhitch the implements.

I checked the transmission oil, and it's milky. Rear axle oil is clean.

What causes the water in the transmission oil? It can't be too much water because the fluid is still level with the fill plug.

I did just wash it relatively gently with the pressure washer. I'm renovating a couple of fields that are about 10% poison ivy, and I'm super sensitive. I get it from the tractor tires, and probably everywhere else on the machine.

The old boy that I bought this machine from was a pride in ownership kind of guy. It's been maintained perfectly. He had it trailered 80 miles every year to a shop that specialized in old Fords. It's not a museum piece though it was always a working tractor.

We likely all feel the same here, but I'd take this over any new machine. There's very little I can't fix with a set of wrenches, screwdrivers and a lot of stubbornness

Speaking of which... I have another inquiry about manuals, but I'll start a new thread to make it easier to find.

Water in the transmission is an environmental thing. If an object is cooler than the surrounding environment, humidity (water) in the air will condense on that cooler serface......a glass of iced tea sitting on a table outdoors in the summer time is a vivid example. Well your iron parts have 2 sides.....an internal and an external. These chambers are usually vented to prevent pressure build ups......smoking gun....open to the atmosphere, cold night, warming up the next day, steel takes a long time to warm up so it sweats...internally and externally.....wala source of your water!!!!!

I use this anolomy to check the fluid level in my tractor tires. On a winter or cool spring day, early in the morning, go out to your tractor and you can see the level of the fluid in the tire. Where the fluid is present, the tire remains cool longer than the part that is air filled. Therefore, the liquid filled portion will sweat water droplets..........

 

[Sean in PA]

I've about decided that looking at the color and consistency of oils is what will determine my oil change habits in the future. Getting somebody to come by my farm and pickup used oil has become a pain and an expensive....an expense one doesn't think about when you are on the "gotta change the oil" side of the equation.

I don't have access to the oil quality testing thing.....too lazy and cheap to investigate I guess......and have decided that I have been changing perfectly good oil just because an operator's manual says to do so......think about it......manuals are written for the WORLD's usage!!!!!!!

Example, I saw a picture of a Korean Rice Farmer stuck in the mud up to his fenders with a service truck out changing one of his fluids or refueling him........that is NOT my environment. Plus I may put a few hundred hours.....more like a hundred as I get older, on a machine in a year. I keep my stuff under cover, keeping the elements off and do keep my Zerks greased. I am getting a new perspective on my vehicle maintenance program.

I thought that it was a federal rule, but I know that at least here in PA, any shop that does oil changes for cars, motorcycles, tractors, etc. have to take used motor oil from consumers that do their own oil changes for free.