Perkins ad4.203 engine has coolant in oil

[Diymechanicmike]

Hello I have a mf3165 diesel that has been smoking out the exhaust and breather tube. Initially I thought it was the fuel in it was bad or something cuz it has lots of floating gunk in the fuel bowl and the tank was full of orange sludge. Got that all cleaned up and new fuel in it and a new fuel filter/glass bowl. BTW the engine started up great like there were no issues at all except the smoke. Also the previous owner put a brand new injection pump on it which I thought was dump with all the gunk inside the fuel but whatever I cleaned it out. After all that it still smokes out the exhaust so I went further and went to change the oil in it and when I drained it, it was old black and slightly milky. I left the drain plug out and had a bucket under there to catch the rest of drips while I dumped the oil into an old jug. Went and ate lunch and came back out to put plug back in and noticed a bright green drip of anti freeze on top of the drips of oil in bucket. So I have a very small coolant leak getting into my crankcase somewhere causing the smoking issue. I'm thinking either the head gasket or possibly water pump but not sure if it can leak back into the crank case or not. But I do know I'm not getting oil into my coolant sector because the coolant is bright green and brand new looking.

So my question is where should I begin my next investigation or possible repair job?
Is there anyway for coolant to get into crankcase without oil getting back into the coolant?
Also is there anything easy it could be before I tear the head off to see if the headgasket is blown somewhere or just weeping?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[John Deere D]

Good chance a leaking had gasket. Any history of a head gasket being replaced?

Are you able to remove the fuel injectors...

Let Engine set for a day....

Cranks engine over on Starter....Any sign of coolant being evident from fuel injector port / ports.?

The above is how I determined the location of a Perkins 3 cylinder Diesels problem ..

 

[jtxn]

If it's anything like the 135, it could be the water pump. The early years did not have a metal plate between the water pump and the timing cover. If the water pump is original it could have worn a hole into the timing cover. Mine was not damaged, but I added the plate, available from AGCO, when I installed the new water pump. I have never removed a head before but I assume removing the fuel tank/water pump is easier.

Other than, search these forums and internet, you may have more luck using the 135 as a search term, it's the same engine, just 3 cylinder.

 

[ptfarmer]

The blowby out of the breather tube is a concern, most likely some piston rings are going away. Like the ad3.152 the coolant in the oil most likely the head gasket. I've been seeing more of these engines needing head gaskets and or new pistons, and liners (you have to remember these engines are 40+ years old now). Also been seeing alot more injector pumps leaking.

This post was edited by ptfarmer on 10/29/2023 at 02:02 pm.

 

[Diymechanicmike]

No I have zero history of what has been done to this tractor, heck the previous owner wasn't even sure if it was gas or diesel. Maybe the previous owner before him put the new injection pump on idk. Lol. The injection pump is definatly brand new on it tho, it's the newest part besides the spin on oil filter adapter and filter I put on and the fuel filter/glass bowl.

Do you mean like take the injectors out? What will I be testing for by doing this?



I like the idea that it could be the water pump cuz that seems like a much easier fix, heck even if there is a hole wore into timing cover, could I just jb weld the hole then put the plate over that to seal everything up the way it should be?
The water pump definatly looks original. What on the water pump can actually wear the hole in timing cover you mentioned? Is there any special way to test for this or do I just have to take water pump off to find out.



Yeah I totally get that this engine probably needs a rebuild. I just wanted to see if I could get the coolant leak fixed without rebuilding the engine to get some use out of it before I tear it down. We just bought this tractor as a second tractor for tooling around and such and for extra help when doing some projects with our other 3165 gas tractor that we just about got a 220 backhoe restored for. It also has the loader. But we got that diesel tractor for $500 so we have plenty of spending room on it when the funding is available of coarse lol.

But you say the smoke out of breather is a sign of bad rings?

What about the smoke out the exhaust, same thing bad rings?

I was thinking the coolant in the oil could be causing the smoke cuz if i remember right (hasnt ran in 3-4 months)the smoke got worse as the engine heated up. But I think the smoke out exhaust lightend up but the breather was still rolling it out as it ran. Don't hold me to that tho it was like July when I was last messing with it. I was thinking the coolant was burning off in the oil as it heated up... but that's just an assumption.

So where do you guys think I should start this repair?
Waterpump since that's the easiest culprit and if that's not it I atleast have a brand new water pump and can check that off the future repair job list?

If there are any other test I can do to try to rule stuff out please let me know?

Thanks,,
Mike

 

[ptfarmer]

What color is the smoke coming out the exhaust. Since you are getting coolant in the oil, it's possible the head gasket could also be leaking coolant into the cylinders causing the smoke out the exhaust.

The injector leaks I was referring to is the injection pump itself (been seeing lots of leaks out of the top cover of pumps lately).

Always rule out the simpler/cheaper things out first like a water pump/front cover leaking before diving into deeper/more expensive problems. I always tend to start out out as worst case senario before digging into something so it's not a big surprise if that's what it happens to be.


Plus these engines are really simple, and there is not many ways for coolant to get into the oil, or cylinder to be burned if that's what its doing.

This post was edited by ptfarmer on 10/31/2023 at 12:00 pm.

 

[peanut pete]

(quoted from post at 19:14:14 10/31/23) What color is the smoke coming out the exhaust. Since you are getting coolant in the oil, it's possible the head gasket could also be leaking coolant into the cylinders causing the smoke out the exhaust.

The injector leaks I was referring to is the injection pump itself (been seeing lots of leaks out of the top cover of pumps lately).

Always rule out the simpler/cheaper things out first like a water pump/front cover leaking before diving into deeper/more expensive problems. I always tend to start out out as worst case senario before digging into something so it's not a big surprise if that's what it happens to be.


Plus these engines are really simple, and there is not many ways for coolant to get into the oil, or cylinder to be burned if that's what its doing.

This post was edited by ptfarmer on 10/31/2023 at 12:00 pm.

This was my experience, no backing plate evident behind the water pump, maybe bearing became a little worn, impeller wears through timing cover, advised not to,weld it or it will crack, so jb welded it, replaced head gasket as well,, so far so good.

 

[ptfarmer]

(quoted from post at 04:05:58 11/01/23)

This was my experience, no backing plate evident behind the water pump, maybe bearing became a little worn, impeller wears through timing cover, advised not to,weld it or it will crack, so jb welded it, replaced head gasket as well,, so far so good.

I've worked on alot of these tractors, and I will say that is the first time I've seen that. When I do a head gasket on one of these I always prefer to replace the water pump, thermostat, and hoses when I have it that far apart.

 

[Diymechanicmike]

Wowzers!!! I bet that was getting coolant in the oil real quick. I dont think I have a hole like that, however that could be forming for me.... I just seen the drop of coolant as I drained the oil. I'm thinking I'm looking at a head gasket weep. Maybe I'll just do the water pump while I'm at it since that could be happening to my timing cover. They sell the plates that I assume cover that spot? Or is that a fabricated item?

 

[Diymechanicmike]

Thanks for the photos of the possible causes. Definatly a good reference to learn from on that pic. I'm definatly gonna get the water pump and a plate replaced on it so that doesn't become an issue if it isn't the culprit now.... now I'm contemplating if I should just do an inframe rebuild since I'll have the head off, only extra would be dropping the oil pan for access to everything right?

I don't really have a good place for actually splitting a tractor or a A-frame hoist. I could do that extra for now and since the clutch seemed to work fine on it while it was running i can put splitting it off until I have a better spot for splitting tractors. I do have plans for setting that up before the NEED arises I hope. let me know what you think?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[ptfarmer]

(quoted from post at 16:44:34 11/03/23) Thanks for the photos of the possible causes. Definatly a good reference to learn from on that pic. I'm definatly gonna get the water pump and a plate replaced on it so that doesn't become an issue if it isn't the culprit now.... now I'm contemplating if I should just do an inframe rebuild since I'll have the head off, only extra would be dropping the oil pan for access to everything right?

I don't really have a good place for actually splitting a tractor or a A-frame hoist. I could do that extra for now and since the clutch seemed to work fine on it while it was running i can put splitting it off until I have a better spot for splitting tractors. I do have plans for setting that up before the NEED arises I hope. let me know what you think?

Thanks,
Mike

If you do a inframe the only thing you can't do the rear main bearings, or rear main seal, (you can pull the other main caps, and look at the bearings in the main caps, but if the oil pressure was good that really doesn't need to be done). If your rear main seal leaks more than you like to, now's the time.

 

[Diymechanicmike]

Well I'll check the rear main if it's leaking any, all I need to do for that is drop the access plate to clutch right? I don't think it is leaking, well there isn't alot of greasy oil down there so that tells me if there is a leak it's not bad atleast. I'll check that with a flashlight better to be sure tho. But I just figured if I have the head off might as well check the pistons, rings, maybe sleeves, I guess I could do the rod bearings too. If I have it apart might as well do as much preventative maintenance as I can so it'll be that much longer before the need to open it back up occurs. Or just wait til the clutch goes, hopefully. What about bottom end, should i do anything with the oil pump? Any other things down there I should check out? Would be nice when the clutch goes and I have to split it and only thing I have to repair is the main bearings, the crank seals, and timing chain jazz and it would be practically rebuilt.

One thing I'm not really clear on is the main and rod bearings sizes.... if I do go-ahead and change the rod bearings, what size do I use or how do I determine that? Standard size? I'm not a professional engine builder just a guy who is mechanically inclined enough to do the labor myself and follow my manuals guidelines, but when it comes to the knowledge of special things like that I'm clueless and need advice. But I am a quick hands on learner so that's a big plus!!

Thanks,
Mike

 

[ptfarmer]

If it was running fine, has good oil pressure, has good power, starts easy, didn't burn oil (if the only real problem was coolant in oil) you could just do the head gasket, check the water pump to make sure it's not the leak, and put it back to work.

The rear main seals on these engine are a rope seal so they always seem to seep a little bit (they are just marking their territory). Also these engines use gears so there is no timing chain to worry about. These engines are really simple, and pretty much bullet proof as long as you keep up with oil, filter changes, and don't flat out abuse it.

If the engine has never been into it should have standard bearings (the crank shouldn't have been reground from stock) so it shouldn't need .010", or .020" undersize main, rod bearings.

 

[Diymechanicmike]

Well besides the coolant in oil, the smoking out the breather and exhaust was the other issue. But I wasn't sure if that could be related to the coolant in oil. Lol. Feel like I'm chasing my tail thinking about it.

But the tractor before I did anything to it, would start up and run great. (Besides the smoke)Almost better then our gas tractor that we use more regularly. I also used it to pull a car that had been sitting at bottom of a hill with rusty brakes up the hill about 500+ feet so I'd say it had plenty of power with the smoking issue, cuz at that time I had no clue on the coolant in oil just wanted to use it for something before putting time and more money into it. You know the justify your purchase and investment testing procedures lol. Then once I realized it had power and starts up great then I knew it was investable, and shouldn't be too hard of a fix. But like I said I did pick it up for $500 so it's hard to pass on a deal like that even if it did need completely rebuilt.

But right now what I'm thinking my issue could be is the headgasket. And I'm thinking maybe it's not completely blown but not fully sealing either. Like maybe weeping pressureized coolant threw the gasket material between the coolant passage and a oil passage(which is where the drip of coolant into oil came from) and the coolant passage and the combustion chamber (causing the smoke out exhaust) but the breather smoke I can't pin point exactly with my assumptions lol.

I'm just trying to figure a repair plan out before I just go buying parts. It's either just head gasket and water pump or waterpump and a rebuild kit. Cheaper repairs are always better repairs! If there are any test I can do to try to narrow my issue down please let me know.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Diymechanicmike]

Thanks for clarification on the timing stuff, I was thinking it might been geared but wasn't sure. I hadn't looked to that part of my book. And the engine bearings sizes, I was thinking that but wasn't sure. So is there a obvious way to tell if it has been modified at any time in its life? I wouldn't think so with the way it looks lol but who knows where it came from originally or if it was a special model for a specific application. It is an industrial model so that's a possibility.

But i know for sure I'm at least the third owner of it and the guy before me was completely clueless on it. And I think he said he got it from an auction to fix up and had no mechanical experience so it was costing him too much to have it fixed up. So it's been around.

My other gas tractor had a beers motor company sticker on it, I think it was an old business in Chicago. And I got the tractor from outside farmington,mo.. so they sure do get around. Got a parts front end loader off a tractor from a guy in Ironton, MO and it had a sticker on it from some construction company in florida in the 80s. Crazy how stuff moves around over the years.

 

[ptfarmer]

I would do an inframe on it, and be done with it, inframe kits are not that expensive. There is a serial number stamped into the engine block that you need to get the correct kit. The last inframe I did on a couple of month ago on my uncles MF 240 with the ad3.152 (same basic engine as the ad4.203 minus 1 cylinder) I don't think I spent more than $600 on parts. I did order the inframe kit, and the other stuff (water pump, injector pump seal kit, filters) before I started on it, I had it done in a week (I was taking my time).

 

[Diymechanicmike]

Yeah that's what i was thinking. Just inframe rebuild to be sure, while I'm into it that far.

 

[Diymechanicmike]

Where is this serial number stamped into block?

 

[ptfarmer]

Should be stamped into the block either in the rear of the block, or on the right hand side of the block just below the head. The serial number should be something like this 29D3802

 

[Diymechanicmike]

203UA15177D is what that number reads on rear driver side of block below head. No other numbers in that area of block.