CHN Low Ash replacement - Pennzoil ?

[AC_IH_MF]

I am in the process of changing the oil in my 460U and see that it is spec'd for low ash oil. One of the new (only?) oils spec'd for this is CHN's low ash straight 30 oil. From recent posts it appears that CHN is no longer carrying this product. Regardless, the drive to a dealer would be more than I'd really like to do for some oil.

I see that some have indicated that dealers are selling Pennzoil conventional SAE 30 as "low ash" but I cannot find those specs to confirm other than Hoober selling it as such.

I did call Pennzoil and at first they told me they do not sell conventional SAE 30 which is partly true. They must be custom making this as its not available through their distributors but they still could not tell me me the ash content. It does however have 800PPM of zinc which which perhaps may make it low ash but Pennzoil wouldn't sell it as such.

TSC does sell the same product that Hoober is selling as "low ash". Not sure what other options there are other than going to a new ULSAP multi grade diesel oil.

Mobile 1300 is mentioned here but thats still .9% ash, nearly double CHN's oil.
https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1553841

This post was edited by AC_IH_MF on 03/25/2022 at 11:50 am.

 

[fastfarmall]

I use IHC Low ash 30, if i need to start it in the winter i add a little diesel fuel,and then change it in the spring, the 806 owners manual say it's ok to do. It even tells how much to add !!

 

[the tractor vet]

Well what ya can try is Delo 100 if it is still out there it was a low ash that we USE to run in the old Detroits , Now i have not run a old double breasted Yamaha since back in early 77 in a Brockway tractor draggen the low boy. How well it will work in the I H gas tractor ???????? but the exhaust valves will let you know soon enough . Just one more way of getting old stuff out of production and use . When ya can no longer get parts or what is needed to run it on you are forced to upgrade to newer stuff .

 

[the tractor vet]

we ran the 30 year round and never had and issue with cold start , they may turn slow but all that fan blade needed to turn was just one or two blades and she was running . My old Super H use to set in the back yard under a tarp in the winter and even with the org 6 volt she would start down to -30 below , nope she did not like it but here again if the fan balde moved just one blade she would start . BUT plum refused to start at -35 below the one cold morning and i needed to plow snow . Well the snow did not get plowed that day but the next day it warmed up to -27 and it started with a little help of warming up the battery with the charger for and hour .

 

[used red MN]

What do you use you 460U for and how much in hours
per year. Do you pull it hard for more than 2 hours at a
time? I am talking like on a plow or disk where it would
be a steady heavy load. If you are not using it for that
type of work 4-6-10 hours straight IN MY OPINION I
doubt you will have a bit of trouble out of you tractor
engine as long as you put a quality oil in it. Now the Vet
can soap box this all he wants, but I really think that if
IH 6 cylinders were really that finicky about the oil
used in them at least every other day there would be
posts on here saying the valves are out or the pistons
are scored on my IH 6 cylinder tractor what do I do
now. Those types of post are few and far between.
When you do see one, after a little more discussion
you usually find out the machine was expected to be
slap wore out anyway. One thing I will agree with the Vet on is that having the high throttle ignition timing set to the proper spec is very important on these tractors. If you are hearing detonation or pre ignition under heavy loading it is a good idea to back the timing down a couple of degrees and if need be run the best octane gas you can especially if you are working it hard as stated above.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

(quoted from post at 12:01:58 03/25/22) I use IHC Low ash 30, if i need to start it in the winter i add a little diesel fuel,and then change it in the spring, the 806 owners manual say it's ok to do. It even tells how much to add !!

IH (Viscosity Akcela) Low Ash no longer exists since CaseIH swithced oil suppliers from Viscosity to Shell.

Shell does not make a suitably low ash product. Near as I have been able to research, the fan favorite Rotella T4 has at least twice as much ash content as the old IH (Viscosity Akcela) Low Ash 30.

Your local CaseIH dealer will supply you with Pennzoil Low Ash as a replacement.

Viscosity Oil now claims that their UNITEK MG SAE 30 product is a "low ash" oil suitable for use in gasoline and diesel engines. You need to find a Viscosity Oil dealer near you to purchase this. Some CaseIH dealers are Viscosity dealers.

 

[AC_IH_MF]

I just got it at auction not long about but supposed to be rebuild and does have all new gaskets and doesn't appear to smoke other than carb needing tune a bit better. For all I knew the issue has been remediated when the head was rebuilt.

The plan is to use it to pull a rotary cutter to do 15 acres and maybe pull a few logs here and there. I have a CUT for mowing/plowing so the 460 is unlikely to get much if any use below freezing.

I'd agree when there are 10,000's of "impacted" IH tractors out there I can't imagine that many are using the specified oil - and many on forums freely admit so.

I'd like to use the correct oil if I can find it locally but I'd not driving several hours to buy 9 quarts of oil in a hobby tractor.

The tech at Pennzoil did mention some of the new ultra low SAP oils they have are as low as .3 or .4 but those would be for a new diesel.

This post was edited by AC_IH_MF on 03/25/2022 at 01:16 pm.

 

[John in Ct]

I bought low ash 30 weight for my IH 154 Cub Lo-Boy a couple of weeks ago from my dealer.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

Lotta people don't know about this forum. Lotta people don't know what a good running tractor is. Lotta people just figure they have carburetor problems and live with it. Lotta people just park the tractor or get rid of it.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

If the .3 or .4 is ash content, I think the old CaseIH low ash was .5. Sounds like it would work fine as long as we're talking the same units here. Maybe PPM, don't remember...

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

(quoted from post at 13:17:33 03/25/22) I bought low ash 30 weight for my IH 154 Cub Lo-Boy a couple of weeks ago from my dealer.

Many dealers still have a stock of old oil left. The Low Ash is not a big seller and they have to buy it a pallet at a time, so it stands to reason they might have some now, over a year after the change.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

Haha soap box! Dont you mean low ash box?

 

[the tractor vet]

You will never hear it ping what it will do is just start to bog down start missing like it is running out of gas or needs the choke pulled and may come back to life for a couple moments the just flat up and lock up DOA and NOT even try and turn over . BUT left set for 20-30 min she will start and run again , you may hear a sight knock maybe not but she will act up faster and die again and NOW you will hear a knock . On the valve burning here again this can and will happen even on a good sound engine and once again it will happen in the blink of and eye . it was not only me finding these problems it was everyone that ran a later model I H gasser . I learned the CURE from and old I H dealer from Marrion Ind. while at a sale while i was talking to Clyde Burkshire and other OLD I H dealer he was the one that introduced me to BILL ( don't ask me Bill's last name as i have plum forgot and use to have his home Phone Number in my little black book i carried till the War Dept washed it . ) My one friend is stilll running the family 460 Gas that was Bought new here in town at SOLONA Supply back in 1960 . When it was new with the brand new 4x14 old style semi mount plows that are still on the farm setting in the one shed and still in go to the field ready shape brand new she ate exhaust valves like M & M's Solona would bring something out so Jim could get the fireld work done while they pulled the head and run it down three blocks away to Eldan would put new valve or two in and get back . Jim turned the farm over to John and the 460 was made the manure spreading tractor with a 155 I H spreader hooked to it 24-7 and still ate valves . JIm used Valvoline , John used Valvoline . Solona closed during the case i h deal then i started doing the work and it ate valves. when the gas started to change then the problem with piston swelling and sizing started to come into play . I was running a 706 gasser for my hobby farming and putting out a whopping 50 to 60 acres of corn a year and making hay . I was NOT having the issue with sizing pistons BUY everybody around me were i was not having the valve issue as i was usen the low ash and would buy fifty five gallon barrel during the 10% off days . Gas wise i fed my 706 the same gas that went into my pick up . My 73 did not have the stock 360 two bbl boat anchor , it had a 1969 428 S/CJ with 11 to 1 pistons , it was a left over new in crate as we called them TEAM engines made for the Ford drag racing days . When Ford got out of the Drag racing they offered these left over engines to Drag Club members for CHUMP CHANGE , they were drop in ready to run add your starter , fan blade , alt hook up fuel and water add started hook wires up turn key and RUN all this for 525 us dollars and with a few slight mods it would bolt in anything with a FE block . I ran high test 706 ran high test back then there was only a couple cents different . a 460-560 needs no less then 89 octane old reg gas was 95 on farm and cheap Gulftane was 92-3 farm gas was normally 93 706-856 needs 93 MINIMUM . run that set the timing dead on a proper working dist. and farm to your hearts delight . the run cooler run real well and believe it or not do not sue as much fuel. . When we could get the GOOD stuff we had no problems none use the correct oil run the gas for that tractor and they did what you wanted all day and into the night . The extra we paid for fuel and the oil per year did not even add up to what having a injection pump cost me to get rebuilt not you me . Did the oil changes around 150 to 200 hours and on avg. during a day of hard work one qt. of oil maybe two , so put the numbers to this and compare to a car running soild for 10-14 hours at say 2350 RPM dragging a camper behind it with a avg speed of 42 MPH and see how much oil and gas it sucked up . Back in the day a qt every 650 miles was ok . Back then running a 318 Detroit hauling coal from 3 Am toll when ever ya got it it took a gallon of oil . When i finally got John to use the low ash i have not once had the head off that tractor and that has been 25 28 years now when i got him to get 89 octane gas the 460 did not have a problem pulling up the hill with a half spreader full of manure anymore . .

 

[used red MN]

Barnyard I suspect this reply was for me, I see your
point and I also realize there are at least two other
forums that deal mainly with IH stuff. But these days
when people have trouble with something they go to
the internet and most often I suspect that is how they
find this forum. And this is not exclusive to real young
folks either, I wanted to know some more about the the
problems I was facing dealing with a CharLynn PS
system on the M I was resurrecting. So nine years ago
at 51 I searched and was lead here. Now spend to
much time here already and I absolutely do not want to
look at two other forums to see what is said over there.
I just feel if the valves were ..plinking.. in these tractors
as much as a certain individual warns about it I really
think there would be more topics posted here down
those lines. For the OP, it is understandable you want
to do the right thing for your tractor. Again, MY
OPINION I do not think driving to the equator to
acquire some special ..liquid gold.. is all that important
for the general use we see reported for tractors on
these forums.

 

[wore out]

(quoted from post at 14:38:06 03/25/22) Barnyard I suspect this reply was for me, I see your
point and I also realize there are at least two other
forums that deal mainly with IH stuff. But these days
when people have trouble with something they go to
the internet and most often I suspect that is how they
find this forum. And this is not exclusive to real young
folks either, I wanted to know some more about the the
problems I was facing dealing with a CharLynn PS
system on the M I was resurrecting. So nine years ago
at 51 I searched and was lead here. Now spend to
much time here already and I absolutely do not want to
look at two other forums to see what is said over there.
I just feel if the valves were ..plinking.. in these tractors
as much as a certain individual warns about it I really
think there would be more topics posted here down
those lines. For the OP, it is understandable you want
to do the right thing for your tractor. Again, MY
OPINION I do not think driving to the equator to
acquire some special ..liquid gold.. is all that important
for the general use we see reported for tractors on
these forums.

red, I'm with you.

From the mid-70's through the 80's we ran a couple of gas "503" combines.

No one ever told us about IH "low ash" oil and we ran Gulf, Phillips 66, and later Farmers Union Cenex diesel oil in them with nary a valve issue.

I had to replace a head gasket in one of them, and I don't recall doing a valve job, just had the head surface touched up and put it back on and got back to work.

And, in heavy wheat windrows those engines run hard!

 

[Hawkeye85]

Old binders dont care as long as it is clean oil. Change
yearly with a filter and run it like it was meant to be run.

 

[caterpillar guy]

Our H has not had low ash oil or at least we did not run out and seek it. We put what the rest of the tractors get the same 15-40 we get for the bigger horses with no problems and it runs fine smooth and no stutter when I pull the throttle back on the auger or other loads. Has not had the head off in 44 years or there about. starts fine. Though it has had the 12v conversion and a delco electronic ignition added about 20 years ago. A Chevette distributor on there. I still say the Mechanical advance can't work or work well with the difference in engine speed.

 

[John in WVa]

Messicks in Mount Joy Pa has the Unitek SAE 30 oil also Cub Cadet has low ash in Quart bag easy pour spout.Use it all 8N Fords Kohler etc they have in stock

 

[pete 23]

Low ash. What does it mean. It means after burning it leaves less ASH behind. The IH low ash oil,
developed by the IH owned Viscosity Oil Co. for the high horse power gasoline engines back in the
Early 70's or so, eleminated or greatly reduced the calcium , barium and magnesium additives in
engine oils.

I saw the test result pictures of using that low ash oil as compared to regular oil and there was
a whole lot less buildup on valve stems, heads and on piston head and comb chambers. That doesn't
mean other oils didn't work, just that normally, the newly developed oil worked better.

Believe you me, I did a whole lot of valve jobs on the 263 engines , mostly in a hard working
706. I also finally figured out the original valve seat were either becoming loose or not fit
tight enough from factory. If you can just tap valve seat through exhaust port with a screwdriver
and it moves, it is sure going to burn that valve shortly. Those same style engines in trucks were
no better. Motor Truck division had their own valve cupping and burning issues from 220 to 264
engines. I was there. I was pulling heads regularly the first few years I worked there.

Took me a long time to get the boss to purchase a valve seat cutting tool so I could install
oversize seats. Previously they would put in a new seat and peen it in. Not good deal at all.

Any low ash oils that are being pushed on Diesel engines, if they are actually doing that would
have to do with reducing emessions, and nothing to do with valve life or any part of engine life.

 

[randy hall]

you can use what you want but I learned real quick on the first 706 gas tracor I bought. It didn't last one grinder full of ear corn and it torched an exhaust valve, this was after I changed the oil and put in #1 ih diesel oil. We still use 87 octane gas but have the timing bumped back a few degrees. They will still make close to ninety horses on the dyno. These are c-301 engines. So only low ash for these tractors.

 

[the tractor vet]

Ah well ah a 706 only came with on the early models a C263 and after 66 the C 291 . The 301 came in the 806 . Yep the 301 will bolt in but they did not come from the factory . A 301 times different then the other two . If you back timing up they tend to kick back thru the carb and at times end up with a carb fire . just like the 68-69 383's in the Mo Par line up . This was more on the four speed cars that factory set was TDC and the Automatics set at 5 degrees before . Replaced a boat load of air cleaners and carbs on them back in the day and sometimes everything ontop of the engine and bolted to the fire walls. . BUT it is your tractor and run it as you see fit. I have seen a couple 706-806 in dead rows that had A fire start in the carb from a back fire the fixable ones did not take that much to get them going and what you found was late ing. timing . Depending on just how bad they flooded it just how big of fire they had and if in the barn with chaff on the floor kiss the barn and anything in side good by. also running late timing can cause higher combustion temps . Running late timing was a way we use to check for oil burning , start the engine and run the RPM's up and back off timing . This would foul the plug on the bad hole . 87 octane burns hotter then what we use to use . and it is a fast hot burn . Myself i liked the 706 gassers and ran one for years before getting into the buy sell . Sold several to close friends that ran them for years . Like you my buddy and i were grinding feed with his one evening just after a valve job and i was standing there running the auger when it started to pull down due to a big slug going in and i shut the auger off and ran to kick the PTO out and before i could hit the handle she sputtered once and i saw a cherry red chunk of valve go out the pipe and we now had one dead hole . I use to do a bunch of valve jobs on the 460-560- and 706's Till i learned about the low ash Yep it cost a little more but it stopped the valve burning and i stopped getting in valve jobs . Valve jobs paid for the valve grinder the seat and guide machine and the head surfacer and the stones that went on it . Then it was only used on rebuilds andany that i drug home from a dead row at a sale that was in need . Let my stock of valves and seats drop off as now it was not a rush to get it in and out . Now i could just call and have it shipped in a couple days .

 

[dhermesc]

Even older diesel oils actually had a high ash content - something specific to diesel engines. So if you are running diesel oil in your gas tractor in the early 2000s and before you were running the
exact opposite of IH advised. When Tier 3 and Tier 4 diesel engines became the norm the ash content in diesel oil was significantly lowered. I remember as a child (70s and 80s) my dad making a huge issue
about making sure the only diesel engine oil went into diesel tractors and only gas engine oil went into the gas tractors. And we had some extremely high hour gas and diesel engines on the farm.


These guys cover it better:

The term sulfated ash relates to the amount of metallic elements in engine oils, which are mostly derived from the engine oil's detergent and antiwear additive chemistry. These additive packages contain
multiple components based on metals such as calcium, magnesium, zinc, etc.


An engine oil's sulfated ash content also directly relates to an engine oil's acid neutralization capabilities (BN), because most of an engine oil's BN comes from the metal-containing detergent additives.
Generally, the higher an engine oil's BN, the higher its ash content and the greater its ability to prevent acidic corrosion in the engine. Fortunately, with the mandated use of ultra low sulfur diesel fuel
in on-highway applications, corrosion from fuel sulfur will require less of a need for BN control and thus a lower ash content.


https://www.solverchem.com/articles/lubricating-oils-articles/what-is-sulfated-ash-in-engine-oils/details

 

[Fritz Maurer]

How long after the valve job did it fail?

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

(quoted from post at 14:38:06 03/25/22) Barnyard I suspect this reply was for me, I see your
point and I also realize there are at least two other
forums that deal mainly with IH stuff. But these days
when people have trouble with something they go to
the internet and most often I suspect that is how they
find this forum. And this is not exclusive to real young
folks either, I wanted to know some more about the the
problems I was facing dealing with a CharLynn PS
system on the M I was resurrecting. So nine years ago
at 51 I searched and was lead here. Now spend to
much time here already and I absolutely do not want to
look at two other forums to see what is said over there.
I just feel if the valves were ..plinking.. in these tractors
as much as a certain individual warns about it I really
think there would be more topics posted here down
those lines. For the OP, it is understandable you want
to do the right thing for your tractor. Again, MY
OPINION I do not think driving to the equator to
acquire some special ..liquid gold.. is all that important
for the general use we see reported for tractors on
these forums.

You don't have to drive to the equator, just to your nearest local CaseIH dealer, and the oil is not all that much more expensive than regular oil. No need for drama.

Frankly I don't think these gassers are as common or in as widespread use as you believe. People shy away from them due to the cost of gas and the amount of gas they consume. They are VERY expensive to run, so folks that have them tend to not work them hard, or use them at all.

Nothing is ever guaranteed. People take perfect care of their cars, never miss a maintenance interval, and the car blows up on them. Others are still running the original engine oil with 140,000 miles on the odometer and have zero issues. You're always rolling the dice, but sometimes you can help influence the dice to come out in your favor.

 

[gene bender]

Any oil sold will be good for that engine quit worrying about low ash

 

[the tractor vet]

Yea really think so then go for it . I am tired of tryen to help people . It seams the best way is to let them find out themselfs . and let there check book tell them just what was good and not so good . Yep and old M- 450 run what ya want after that your on your own . I don't give two hoots in hates as one it is not mine and 2 i am not the one going to fix your problem and 3 i am not going to tell you why it happened . same goes on fuel . let them rebuild screw up carbs do this and that when they have issues with the newer four cylinder and 6 cylinder gasses . Plum just don't care. Don't care when someone lost there steering on the 06-86's or there T/a problems . So now your down to Pete for expert advice on how to fix your I H problems . And i darn sure know that after what now forty years of working on them for a living i do know a little of what works and lasts then the rest of you.

 

[Highwayman]

Welcome back Vet.
Dont let the naysayers get you down. Just put em on ignore.
I for one take your experience as gospel on these tractors and enjoy your story telling.