My rebuilt Perkins won't start

[Jim Mitchell]

I completely tore down and reassembled my A3.182 Perkins engine in my Massey Ferguson 50. Now it won't start, even on ether. It doesn't even try except during that brief period that it takes to consume a shot of either.
Since there are a whole lot of places that could be causing my problem, I was hoping that someone could help me pick apart the troublehsooting to narrow down the likely source of the trouble. And, yes, this is my first rebuild project. The engine was running before I took it apart, even with one broken rocker arm.
I am reasonably certain that the timing gears are on correctly. I had to take them apart once already because I put the cam gear on without keeping track of the position of the D on the gear. That corrected the problem I had with the engine exhausting out the intake.
Is it possible to correctly line up all the timing marks and have the engine be 180 or maybe 120 degrees out of time? I did check the flywheel timing mark before I reassembled the gears.
I took my injector pump apart and put new rebuild kit parts in it.
The lift pump has been replaced, as have the two fuel filters.
I get fuel at the injectors but it doesn't seem to spurt out like I think it should.
I am reasonably certain that the entire fuel system has been bled of any air.
I tested the spray on the injectors and that was ok.

 

[Powered By IH]

Do you mean A3.152 engine?
Did you check valve lash?
Did you replace the copper sealing washers on the injectors?
You can verify correct cam timing by pulling the injectors and feeling for compression, then making sure both valves are closed. Firing order is 1-2-3.

 

[dextadriver]

When you say rebuilt engine?
Did you fit new pistons and liners?
Or just rings?
Are you getting white smoke?

 

[ET]

Send your injection pump to a qualified rebuilder.

 

[used red MN]

I completely tore down and reassembled my A3.182 Perkins engine in my Massey Ferguson 50. Now it won't start,

Hello Jim, welcome to YT!

took my injector pump apart and put new rebuild kit parts in it.

The only way I know to lessen the blow of this is to attempt to put some humor into it.
BUZZ!!! you know like on a TV game show! I don’t know if this applies in your case because since you gave a full name for a username so you are likely not some young person that has to make up a clever one, but unfortunately “The Academy of of YouTube” does not an injection pump repairman make. In most cases it only increases the bravery of those that would otherwise just give in and leave it to a pro.
Okay you say.. “I get fuel at the injectors but it doesn't seem to spurt out like I think it should.”
We have to figure out if the outlet pulse flow to the injectors is actually adequate. Do you get grey smoke when cranking it?
Verifying injection pump function:
1)This could possibly be done by a short video of what the pulses look like out of the end of the line pulled away from the injector as you crank it with the throttle wide open. Video will have to be under 10 seconds to upload here.
2)Find someone with experience that can help you determine if the pump is working correctly. Where are you? Maybe another YT member could help you out. If you were within an hour of me I would help you out for a little gas money.
3) Remove an injector and connect it to the line outside of the cylinder and see if it is popping off and atomizing the fuel. Which leads me to the question how did you “test the spray on the injectors”?
What say you?

 

[Jim.ME]

A MF 50 with a diesel engine should be a Perkins AD3.152. The D designating diesel vs the AG3.152 gasoline engine.

If you test the injectors for spray, keep hands, fingers and body parts away from them. Fuel injected under the skin is harmful, even fatal.

If you are looking at fuel coming out of the lines from the pump to the injectors, you will not see a large spurt that blows out several inches.

Are you sure the pump is timed to the engine?

 

[Jim Mitchell]

I stand corrected - A3.152 is the engine. I know I am going to get thrashed for this but, the D in the engine designation represents direct injection and has to do with the orientation of the injector to the piston and how the fuel is introduced to the cylinder. Mine is an A3.152. AD3.152 is a slightly different configuration.

The valve lash was set, and checked a couple of times to make sure.
I did replace the copper washers on the injectors, although I don't know why that would keep this thing from trying to run.
I replaced the liners and piston rings.
I get a little bit of white smoke except when the either is being burned, then it is all black.
I put each injector on a pressure test unit. I think it was an old-school OTC (I don't remember for sure).
I made sure to mark the internal c-clip of the injector pump and put it back where it was.
Other than that, I never did find a mark on the timing gear housing to align with one on the injector pump so I just parked it in the middle of the slot.

 

[used red MN]

I get a little bit of white smoke except when the either is being burned, then it is all black

If an injector line nut is backed off a 1/2 turn from snugged down, then given a smack with a wrench to make sure it unseats there should be a noticeable squirt or pulse of fuel from between the nut and line when cranking. If it is just a little gurgle then the pump isn’t bled well enough or it just isn’t pumping like it should.
You don’t mention it so need to ask, the mark in the timing window was lined up when you installed it.
Since you say this is your first overhaul then I take it that also means the first pump you have had open?

 

[Jim.ME]

I stand corrected - A3.152 is the engine. I know I am going to get thrashed for this but, the D in the engine designation represents direct injection and has to do with the orientation of the injector to the piston and how the fuel is introduced to the cylinder. Mine is an A3.152. AD3.152 is a slightly different configuration.

You are not going to get trashed for saying A3.152 for the indirect injection engine. I forgot about the indirect injection 3.152 when I posted it was the AD3.152, my error.

 

[Powered By IH]

Did you replace the pistons or not?
If so, did you put flat top pistons in or dished ones?

Oh, and bad copper washers would cause compression to leak out the outside of the injector.

Can you verify that on each cylinder the intake opens when the piston starts to go down, and exhaust opens when the piston is coming up?

Can you post pictures of your injection pump timing?

 

[miangus]

I suspect the injection pump timing is incorrect. Just to take a wild shot, I believe the shutoff can be install so it works in reverse. Please do not ask how I know the latter

 

[John Deere D]

I completely tore down and reassembled my A3.182 Perkins engine in my Massey Ferguson 50. Now it won't start, even on ether. It doesn't even try except during that brief period that it takes to consume a shot of either.
Since there are a whole lot of places that could be causing my problem, I was hoping that someone could help me pick apart the troublehsooting to narrow down the likely source of the trouble. And, yes, this is my first rebuild project. The engine was running before I took it apart, even with one broken rocker arm.
I am reasonably certain that the timing gears are on correctly. I had to take them apart once already because I put the cam gear on without keeping track of the position of the D on the gear. That corrected the problem I had with the engine exhausting out the intake.
Is it possible to correctly line up all the timing marks and have the engine be 180 or maybe 120 degrees out of time? I did check the flywheel timing mark before I reassembled the gears.
I took my injector pump apart and put new rebuild kit parts in it.
The lift pump has been replaced, as have the two fuel filters.
I get fuel at the injectors but it doesn't seem to spurt out like I think it should.
I am reasonably certain that the entire fuel system has been bled of any air.
I tested the spray on the injectors and that was ok.

WHAT is the LETTER???? you see /read when you remove the side inspection plate off the fuel injection pump? when rotating engine in the normal direction of starting.
You have to verify WHAT LETTER ????? (found in service manual) to be viewed when the Number ONE cylinder is on the compression stroke,as well the number of degrees BTDC (found in service manual)aligns with a pointer on the flywheel.
Then verify that #1 cylinder valve timing is correct.

• If your A3.152 is the Indirect Injection (A3.152) version, the injector fires straight down into a pre-combustion chamber in the cylinder head.
• If it is the Direct Injection (AD3.152) version, the injector fires at a slight angle directly into a bowl in the top of the piston.
• 
  
• WHAT is the LETTER???? you see /read when you remove the side inspection plate off the fuel injection pump? when rotating engine in the normal direction of starting.
  You have to verify WHAT LETTER ????? (found in service manual) to be viewed when the Number ONE cylinder is on the compression stroke,as well the number of degrees BTDC (found in service manual)aligns with a pointer on the flywheel
• Indirect Injection(A3.152) verses Direct Injection (AD3.152)FUEL PUMPS MAY NOT have the same
• "LETTER" and or the same point of injection?????

 

[Dieseltech]

If an injector line nut is backed off a 1/2 turn from snugged down, then given a smack with a wrench to make sure it unseats there should be a noticeable squirt or pulse of fuel from between the nut and line when cranking. If it is just a little gurgle then the pump isn’t bled well enough or it just isn’t pumping like it should.
You don’t mention it so need to ask, the mark in the timing window was lined up when you installed it.
Since you say this is your first overhaul then I take it that also means the first pump you have had open?

Tapping the line is only needed on ERMETO injection line ends, his Perkins does not have those injection lines. I HOPE he DID NOT put direct injection pistons in an engine that needs flat top pistons.

 

[Jim Mitchell]

Ok, fellas. I have a bunch of things to check, mostly I think, with the injector pump timing. That appears to be the consensus. It will take me a few days to get to it.
I do have one additional question before I apply tools to tractor. Is there a way to tell when the #1 cylinder is at TDC (and on compression?) without taking the fuel tank back off and the valve cover to expose the rockers? I never really understood the explanation in the book about the relationship of the flywheel timing mark and #1 cylinder at TDC and on compression stroke.
Thanks everyone who has chimed in. I imagine I will be back with more questions. But if not, I will let you know what I found, or maybe I should say what all I found.

 

[Powered By IH]

Tapping the line is only needed on ERMETO injection line ends, his Perkins does not have those injection lines. I HOPE he DID NOT put direct injection pistons in an engine that needs flat top pistons.

That's what I was wondering, since he said that it won't really start even on ether.

Also sounds like an IP timing problem or possibly low compression.

Ok, fellas. I have a bunch of things to check, mostly I think, with the injector pump timing. That appears to be the consensus. It will take me a few days to get to it.
I do have one additional question before I apply tools to tractor. Is there a way to tell when the #1 cylinder is at TDC (and on compression?) without taking the fuel tank back off and the valve cover to expose the rockers? I never really understood the explanation in the book about the relationship of the flywheel timing mark and #1 cylinder at TDC and on compression stroke.
Thanks everyone who has chimed in. I imagine I will be back with more questions. But if not, I will let you know what I found, or maybe I should say what all I found.

As I stated earlier:
Did you replace the pistons or not?
If so, did you put flat top pistons in or dished ones?

 

[Dieseltech]

That's what I was wondering, since he said that it won't really start even on ether.

Also sounds like an IP timing problem or possibly low compression.


As I stated earlier:
Did you replace the pistons or not?
If so, did you put flat top pistons in or dished ones?

If he DID put in dished pistons, three turbos and a case of ether MIGHT get it started!!

 

[Powered By IH]

If he DID put in dished pistons, three turbos and a case of ether MIGHT get it started!!

'Course you'd have to use the good Deere ether too, like the "real" tractor pullers.
There's a reason they sell it by the case...

 

[miangus]

I went back and reread the original post and he says "It doesn't even try except during that brief period that it takes to consume a shot of either." I at first took that to mean it wouldn't fire on either but then the phrase "except during the brief period that it takes to consume a shot of either" caused me to believe it will run on tither but not start. I believe the pump is installed incorrectly. it is also possible he has the timing gears installed incorrectly. I remember doing my first 203 and carefully setting all the timing marks then I must have rolled the engine over and when I did a final check before installing the cover and nothing lined up. I forget how many times it has to roll over before they line up again.

 

[used red MN]

Is there a way to tell when the #1 cylinder is at TDC (and on compression?) without taking the fuel tank back off and the valve cover to expose the rockers? I never really understood the explanation in the book about the relationship of the flywheel timing mark and #1 cylinder at TDC and on compression stroke.

If you can’t see the valves/pushrods you will have to pull out number 1 injector to feel the compression pushing pressure out on the compression stroke. Then bring it up to TDC on the flywheel timing mark.

 

[Jim Mitchell]

At the risk of taking all the fun out of the back-and-forth about the pistons, I only replaced the rings and liners.

Thanks for the follow-up about finding TDC.
And I hope Miangus is wrong about the timing gears, but it is still a possibility.

I'll be back when I have some answers.