851 auto tie. New Holland

[pcrh]

Hi:

I will be looking at a 851 baler. It is listed as an auto tie baler. I am not familiar with how this works. Will there be some controller to initiate the auto tie? What does my tractor need to work with the auto tie?

Just need help to know what I have to check.

Thanks

 

[Destroked 450]

Auto tie is what it says it is, when the bale reaches a preset size the tie mechanism automatically engages to wrap string around the bale
Not sure about the 851 but the later models with auto wrap (same feature) have a small control box with a light and/or beeper to notify you it was applying twine

 

[pcrh]

Thanks Destroked 450:

So basically I just need to learn how to use the baler and when to stop feeding the baler so it can tie the bale.

Any issues with the auto tie I should pay attention to?

 

[Destroked 450]

It’s been 35 years since I ran a 851 so the memory is a little rusty, even though auto tie is different it operates on the same principle as the later auto wrap used on 640/later models
A working full bale alarm saves a lot of neck twisting but figuring out the position of the bale size indicator when the tie engages helps

 

[DanielW]

I'm going to make some enemies here, as there are some folks who love those chain balers. But I'd personally be looking for something else based of my experiences with NH chain balers and others. A couple weeks ago someone was asking about those chain balers on here. Here was my response with my thoughts/feelings:

A neighbour/friend around the corner from our Northern farm ran a few models of NH chain balers over the years. My question would be: Do you really want to buy a chain baler? There are definitely folks who like them, and there's nothing strictly wrong with them, but I never understood the appeal. They make a looser bale (though not as loose as a soft core bale), they make a raggier-looking bale (ok for personal use, but it's very hard to sell hay made from one - at least around here), they beat the leaves off legume hay, and if the chains are worn, they're a pain to work on and a nightmare to replace.

If it's nearby, uber-cheap, you have grassy hay, and don't plan on selling any, then it may be worthwhile. But I'd be looking for a conventional hard-core belt baler myself.

I'm a little biased against the chain balers, as I spent too much time helping that neighbour work on his. I've made these points on this forum before, but here they are again:

The folks who love those chain balers always make the same arguments:

I) They don't have any belts to 'screw with'.

II) You can practically bale firewood with one of those balers.

III) They'll say things like, 'I've been using mine for 40 years and it's always worked dandy with minimal trouble"

My counter arguments are always:

I) I think folks who are a fan of chain balers assume belt balers are a pain to work on, and need constant service. Not true. One of our balers (a Deere 435 at our Northern farm) is 22 years old, has required zero service, is still on the original belts, and looking at the belts and lacing today there's no reason to suspect they won't last at least another 10 years. Even the old 1980's Vermeer backup baler at our Southern farm had the original belts until a couple years ago. I replaced them as the PO kept the baler outside and the sun hadn't done the belts any kindness, but even those 40 year-old and sun-ravaged belts were still working. And replacing belts is a dead-easy, quick job. Compare that to the chain balers if/when the chains get worn. One of our neighbour's was constantly having chain trouble on one of his, and it was always a nightmare to unbind and replace links. Eventually a few years ago I helped him put in a full set of new chains. Waaaay more expensive than a set of belts, and a proper pain to replace. I could have replaced the belts in a belt baler 10X over in the time it took us to do one set of chains.

II) It's all well and good that those chain balers are tough enough to 'bale firewood'. But I generally to bale hay, not firewood. I'd rather forego the ability to bale a brush pile in favour of having a tighter, more sellable bale and a baler that keeps more leaves on the alfalfa and clover.

III) The argument that a piece of equipment has lasted and not given major trouble isn't really a meaningful argument to me. The fact that a piece of equipment just 'did it's job', isn't exactly super accolades. After all, this is an antique farm equipment forum. Every piece of equipment folks on here talk about is several decades old. And the majority of it has all worked for those decades without giving major trouble. So the argument 'I like my chain baler because it's always worked and never gave much trouble', isn't really all that meaningful. The same is true of any of our belt balers. And the same is true of 80% of the equipment folks on here talk about.

Those are my thoughts, anyway. There are certainly folks on here who will disagree with me, and possibly rightfully so. As I say: I'm biased against them because I spent too many hours helping that neighbour with his. Several times over the years we went and baled for him when his chain baler broke down and he was stuck bungling with broken or jammed chains. Not once did he ever bale for us when our belt baler broke down. Because our belt balers never broke down.

 

[pcrh]

Thanks Destroked 450:

Your rusty info is better than my no info.

Any way to trigger the auto tie if I finish with baling with a partial bale?

Thanks DanielW:

You do provide the other side of good or bad.

 

[Destroked 450]

I’m not a supporter of the old chain bailers as when the chains wear they can be problematic and costly to repair. However old worn belt balers can have their own issue's, some of the early designs can encourage far less than acceptable vocabularies
Any of the old closed throat belt balers should be avoided, some of the early open throat balers could be in perfect working order but if hay was too dry or to high in moisture you couldn’t pay them to make a bale, Hesston 55?? Series, JD 415 come to mind. Worn belts and failed lacing are to be expected over time and will come sooner on balers with high bale counts. Bearing failures are the real issue, caught early depending on bearings location you can be down for a few hours to a few days, caught late the challenge of the day can be getting your tractor unhooked from a burning baler
Affordability and cost over benefit are factors to consider when purchasing a used baler, I’ve been in the can’t afford better category plenty of times, but spending big money for a late model used baler just to made a couple hundred rolls or less per year is hard for me to pencil out
In the mid 90’s when we were making 200 rolls per year a Hesston bale baler replaced the NH bar baler, in the early 2000’s we expanded to making 500/600 rolls and needed a baler that wasn’t as picky about hay conditions so a NH 640 replaced the Hesston, by 2014 we were making over 1000 rolls of spring hay and a late model used NH BR 7070 replaced the 20 year old 640 that was going to need all new belts and roll bearings in the near future. Today we are back down to 400-600 rolls per year and would have a hard time penciling in a replacement for the BR 7070 that has over 10,000 rolls on the counter

 

[Destroked 450]

Thanks Destroked 450:

Your rusty info is better than my no info.

Any way to trigger the auto tie if I finish with baling with a partial bale?

Thanks DanielW:

You do provide the other side of good or bad.

Finding a operators manual or reprint would be very helpful for you
There should be a way to tie small bales but I don’t remember how on your baler, on my old 640 and present BR 7070 there is a trip lever to activate the tie mechanism for undersized bales, but there is a minimum size the bale must be

 

[pcrh]

Thanks Destroked 450:

That will be an important question when I meet the seller next week. Does he have the manual and then the learning will begin. You are quite correct on the pencil part. My bale count for any year will be quite low but having a round baler will simplify what I do.

Both comments help me understand what I should know before looking at the unit.

Thanks.

 

[Destroked 450]

The most important question to ask the owner is if they know the history of the chains and bars
The floor and apron chains that make the bale are wear items that would need replaced eventually, they will make thousands of bales when maintained properly, especially if the apron chains that make oilers are in place and working. However when replacing becomes necessary the cost to rebuild/replace the chains will be very close to $4000, there are 2 apron chains and 8 floor chains

I don’t normally discourage purchasing older equipment but unless the owner has a good history on a bar baler I’d walk, the rush of costly repairs can far exceed to balers value
Do to the rapid development of the early round balers I generally discourage purchasing any round baler built prior to the mid 90’s

As a afterthought the 851 baler makes 5x5 rolls, do you have a tractor big enough to handle the weight and hp requirements, also can you easily handle and feed that size bale, for smaller feeding operations and/or sells the 5x4 bale is a better choice. In my area a 5x4 grass bales sells for $35-40, a 5x5 has 20% more hay but most buyers don’t want the pay the extra $8-10 that a 5x5 is worth, plus I can easily feed my 5x4 bales with my smaller 45 pto hp tractor and leave the bigger tractors setting through the winter months

 

[pcrh]

Thanks Destroked 450:

Thank you. Your points are valuable to me. Plan is to see the unit later this week. I will use your thoughts on wear and condition in evaluating the baler.

 

[m16ty]

I'm going to make some enemies here, as there are some folks who love those chain balers. But I'd personally be looking for something else based of my experiences with NH chain balers and others. A couple weeks ago someone was asking about those chain balers on here. Here was my response with my thoughts/feelings:

A neighbour/friend around the corner from our Northern farm ran a few models of NH chain balers over the years. My question would be: Do you really want to buy a chain baler? There are definitely folks who like them, and there's nothing strictly wrong with them, but I never understood the appeal. They make a looser bale (though not as loose as a soft core bale), they make a raggier-looking bale (ok for personal use, but it's very hard to sell hay made from one - at least around here), they beat the leaves off legume hay, and if the chains are worn, they're a pain to work on and a nightmare to replace.

If it's nearby, uber-cheap, you have grassy hay, and don't plan on selling any, then it may be worthwhile. But I'd be looking for a conventional hard-core belt baler myself.

I'm a little biased against the chain balers, as I spent too much time helping that neighbour work on his. I've made these points on this forum before, but here they are again:

The folks who love those chain balers always make the same arguments:

I) They don't have any belts to 'screw with'.

II) You can practically bale firewood with one of those balers.

III) They'll say things like, 'I've been using mine for 40 years and it's always worked dandy with minimal trouble"

My counter arguments are always:

I) I think folks who are a fan of chain balers assume belt balers are a pain to work on, and need constant service. Not true. One of our balers (a Deere 435 at our Northern farm) is 22 years old, has required zero service, is still on the original belts, and looking at the belts and lacing today there's no reason to suspect they won't last at least another 10 years. Even the old 1980's Vermeer backup baler at our Southern farm had the original belts until a couple years ago. I replaced them as the PO kept the baler outside and the sun hadn't done the belts any kindness, but even those 40 year-old and sun-ravaged belts were still working. And replacing belts is a dead-easy, quick job. Compare that to the chain balers if/when the chains get worn. One of our neighbour's was constantly having chain trouble on one of his, and it was always a nightmare to unbind and replace links. Eventually a few years ago I helped him put in a full set of new chains. Waaaay more expensive than a set of belts, and a proper pain to replace. I could have replaced the belts in a belt baler 10X over in the time it took us to do one set of chains.

II) It's all well and good that those chain balers are tough enough to 'bale firewood'. But I generally to bale hay, not firewood. I'd rather forego the ability to bale a brush pile in favour of having a tighter, more sellable bale and a baler that keeps more leaves on the alfalfa and clover.

III) The argument that a piece of equipment has lasted and not given major trouble isn't really a meaningful argument to me. The fact that a piece of equipment just 'did it's job', isn't exactly super accolades. After all, this is an antique farm equipment forum. Every piece of equipment folks on here talk about is several decades old. And the majority of it has all worked for those decades without giving major trouble. So the argument 'I like my chain baler because it's always worked and never gave much trouble', isn't really all that meaningful. The same is true of any of our belt balers. And the same is true of 80% of the equipment folks on here talk about.

Those are my thoughts, anyway. There are certainly folks on here who will disagree with me, and possibly rightfully so. As I say: I'm biased against them because I spent too many hours helping that neighbour with his. Several times over the years we went and baled for him when his chain baler broke down and he was stuck bungling with broken or jammed chains. Not once did he ever bale for us when our belt baler broke down. Because our belt balers never broke down.

Fair enough arguments. We ran the chain balers back in the day and had better luck than most of the belt balers of the same era. I think it’s unfair to compare chain balers to anything made after the turn of the century, the 1980s belt balers weren’t all that great either.

Of course nobody bales firewood, but earlier closed throat belt balers you plug at the drop of the hat. Those old NH will eat just about anything you feed them.

I was at an auction last week and bought a nice NH 849 chain baler for $300. Going to try to roll some hay with it. If nothing else I’ll haul it to the scrap yard and get my money back, or part it out (the bars are worth $30 a piece to others still running them). The old roller is weathered but seems to have very little wear on it.

A worn out chain baler can be a nightmare and a money pit. Most of them are worn out by now, but there are still a few out there that will make a decent roll.

 

[m16ty]

I

 

[pcrh]

Went to see the baler. For its age it seem to be in good shape. So now I own it.

Chains and floor pan show signs of use but not heavy wear. Owner took me thru working with the baler.. Was last used last fall with no real problems.

Now its time to see if I can remember all the PO shared with me.

Thanks all.

 

[m16ty]

Went to see the baler. For its age it seem to be in good shape. So now I own it.

Chains and floor pan show signs of use but not heavy wear. Owner took me thru working with the baler.. Was last used last fall with no real problems.

Now its time to see if I can remember all the PO shared with me.

Thanks all.

Basically if the chains are tight and the bars are straight it will make a roll.
About all you have to do then is grease everything good and keep the chains oiled. Something like chainsaw bar oil would probably work better, but I just use used engine oil and do it often. It’s free and I need to get rid of it anyway. Keep a gallon jug on the roller and just give it a dose every now and then.

I’ve got a 849, it has a roller in the bottom and no chains. The floor chains work fine, it’s just another wear item and they tend to “rough” the finished bale more. Currently looking for a second one just for parts.

 

[pcrh]

Hi m16ty:

Good suggestions. Very similar to what the PO shared with me. Oil and grease seems to be important to these older machines.

Thanks