I'm buying it: 1951 Ford 8N

[Hobo,NC]

I explained this in post #17

I understand that, my point for $20 you at the least can get it running before you convert to EI. If you get it going on points the EI would be a virtual drop in. Buy a 1.5 Ohm Ballast Resistor a set of points and the battery you plan to use. Its hard to imagine the contacts are toast to the point they are not useable to get it running, I will take your word for it.

 

[Eman85]

3 pages in I say go for it, the combined experience of way over 100 years are just people that don't throw money at projects.

 

[bradleydavidgood]

I understand that, my point for $20 you at the least can get it running before you convert to EI. If you get it going on points the EI would be a virtual drop in. Buy a 1.5 Ohm Ballast Resistor a set of points and the battery you plan to use. Its hard to imagine the contacts are toast to the point they are not useable to get it running, I will take your word for it.

I don't want to spend money or time on that only to throw it away and replace it.

If the problem is the points, the EI will solve the problem.

And I know the timing is off, so I have that to correct with either 6 or 12V.

If the generator/alternator is the problem, EI solves that.

If the coil is the problem, EI solves that.

 

[Hobo,NC]

I don't want to spend money or time on that only to throw it away and replace it.

If the problem is the points, the EI will solve the problem.

And I know the timing is off, so I have that to correct with either 6 or 12V.

If the generator/alternator is the problem, EI solves that.

If the coil is the problem, EI solves that.

You talked me into it, goferit.

 

[bradleydavidgood]

You talked me into it, goferit.

OK Hobo!

 

[woodman1928]

I read all the opinions about 6V. Thank you for those.

I respect your opinions on this, and in a way, for basic troubleshooting reasons, it is the simplest path in a way. Because less is changed up front. Which makes it an attractive path.

However, the current battery is no good, and neither are the points. So to go down that path, I'd already be spending $200. Then there could be several hours (5-10) of my time buying parts, doing these installs, troubleshooting, and communicating on this forum to get it running on 6V. That's $200 and many hours I could invest in going to a modern 12V system.

In my life experience, when I've heard about issues with old equipment that has points, and has trouble starting, it's been the points most of the time, and many stories of fooling with points, cleaning points, replacing points.

When I had issues last year with the Farmall 140 starting, I heard all of these same things about keeping the 6V and addressing the points. We converted to electronic ignition cheaply. Junior at the farm reports that it starts much quicker, and starts every time now, and runs better. I experienced it myself just the other day. He gave me a ride to my truck on the 140 and it started much quicker, was running noticeably better, a remarkable difference. I also watched a video previously of another guy who converted to 12V on the 140 and he said it started much quicker and reliably.

I know I want to convert to 12V, and I'm completely happy with the cost of doing so. To me, in good working order, this tractor has a very high value as far as equipment goes.
In 1951 this tractor sold for $1400. In today's dollars, that is $17,775.
Considering that, $500-1000 to improve and modernize it is nothing to me.

My reasons for converting to 12V:
I replace the entire ignition and charging system (modern 12V battery (AGM), alternator, coil, wires, plugs, distributor cap and rotor, battery). All fresh new modern parts narrows down the potential issues in any of those systems for initial troubleshooting and long term reliability.
No points maintenance
12V charging/jumping equipment
Jump starting with jumper cables from another vehicle
12V spins the starter faster
12V is more forgiving of old wiring and connection voltage drop
More available ignition voltage, while still using the correct coil/resistor setup
12V batteries are easier to find and usually cheaper/more common than 6V tractor batteries
Alternator charging is usually better than the old 6V generator system
12V bulbs, coils, solenoids, alternators, and accessories are easier to source
Lights are brighter
Modern 12V accessories

Thanks!

A few things to keep in mind with converting to 12v reliability wise that you may not be thinking about.
That old 6v starter will sure spin fast with 12v hooked up. The Bendix on it wont last though you'll be in a field somewhere and go to start it and bam the Bendix will let go. also that Bendix slamming into the fly wheel at those speeds can and will damage the flywheel over time

Youll have to replace the starter with a 12v stater so that it will spin slower and not damage the Bendix.

Now your 6v starter being 70 years old is warn and tired but it only takes a few hours to pull it apart put the amiture in the lath polish up the commuter and scrape the insulation between poles back with a buck knife to get that to spin the same speed on 6v as a 12v starter.

your right 12v will defiantly pump more down the line in old wiring to were its going but... if your going to be operating this on the regular you need to replace all your wiring with new any ways. all the original stuff is corroded, and frayed and oxidized and will cause alot of resistance no mater if its hooked up to 6v or 12v. and this will lead to dim lights bad starting and excess heat and eventually fire.

the only reason 6v is viewed so negatively is because it hasn't been used on a new anything in 65 years and the only reason thay stopped using it was because of the need for electronics like radios that were far more compact with 12v. and no one alive really remembers how good a 6v system works new as most older folks were just kids the last time a 6v rolled off the line... they operated is just as good as a 12v spun the starter at the same speed and charged the battery just as well

i have my tractor 6v i have my 28' ford 6v Both new clean wiring and rebuild gens and starters. i have my 97 ford truck and my 78 jeep cj7 with old original wiring 12v. My tractor and model A both start faster and have brighter lights than my truck and jeep.

your right about bulb availably (cant go to autozone for 6v bulbs need to order them instore and pic up in a day or two or order on line and they dont make 6v LEDs, being able to switch to electronic ignitions, and being able to jump other vehicles with your tractor is a no go with the 6 so thats a smart move if you need to do that. You can jump 6 with 12 but not 12 with 6..

All im saying is whatever way you go 12v or 6v with it, replace it / restore it all to new. starter, Alt / gen, wiring, Gauges, (ignition Key Cylinder) Tones of resistance from this with oxidized contacts, Voltage regulator, light bulbs.... balest resistor

Keep in mind one thing about points yes you need to adjust points once a year maybe.. but you still need to open up that distributer 2 times a year to oil / grease the advance weight pivots. electronic ignition's are not set and forget like most people think. they just enable you to put off regular maintenance untill you have caused a larger problem.

 

[bradleydavidgood]

A few things to keep in mind with converting to 12v reliability wise that you may not be thinking about.
That old 6v starter will sure spin fast with 12v hooked up. The Bendix on it wont last though you'll be in a field somewhere and go to start it and bam the Bendix will let go. also that Bendix slamming into the fly wheel at those speeds can and will damage the flywheel over time

Youll have to replace the starter with a 12v stater so that it will spin slower and not damage the Bendix.

Now your 6v starter being 70 years old is warn and tired but it only takes a few hours to pull it apart put the amiture in the lath polish up the commuter and scrape the insulation between poles back with a buck knife to get that to spin the same speed on 6v as a 12v starter.

your right 12v will defiantly pump more down the line in old wiring to were its going but... if your going to be operating this on the regular you need to replace all your wiring with new any ways. all the original stuff is corroded, and frayed and oxidized and will cause alot of resistance no mater if its hooked up to 6v or 12v. and this will lead to dim lights bad starting and excess heat and eventually fire.

the only reason 6v is viewed so negatively is because it hasn't been used on a new anything in 65 years and the only reason thay stopped using it was because of the need for electronics like radios that were far more compact with 12v. and no one alive really remembers how good a 6v system works new as most older folks were just kids the last time a 6v rolled off the line... they operated is just as good as a 12v spun the starter at the same speed and charged the battery just as well

i have my tractor 6v i have my 28' ford 6v Both new clean wiring and rebuild gens and starters. i have my 97 ford truck and my 78 jeep cj7 with old original wiring 12v. My tractor and model A both start faster and have brighter lights than my truck and jeep.

your right about bulb availably (cant go to autozone for 6v bulbs need to order them instore and pic up in a day or two or order on line and they dont make 6v LEDs, being able to switch to electronic ignitions, and being able to jump other vehicles with your tractor is a no go with the 6 so thats a smart move if you need to do that. You can jump 6 with 12 but not 12 with 6..

All im saying is whatever way you go 12v or 6v with it, replace it / restore it all to new. starter, Alt / gen, wiring, Gauges, (ignition Key Cylinder) Tones of resistance from this with oxidized contacts, Voltage regulator, light bulbs.... balest resistor

Keep in mind one thing about points yes you need to adjust points once a year maybe.. but you still need to open up that distributer 2 times a year to oil / grease the advance weight pivots. electronic ignition's are not set and forget like most people think. they just enable you to put off regular maintenance untill you have caused a larger problem.

Great info thanks!

I think I'll take the starter to the Amish shop where we had another one rebuilt. They did a good job.

And yes, I plan on replacing the wiring, even though all of it looks like it has been replaced already and is in good shape, it still won't be hard to upgrade it I don't think. It's in good shape for now and looks like a large enough gauge for 12V. But I'll look at it again and test it.

I won't be using the tractor on the regular, probably a few times a year for work. And I'll probably take joy rides in the neighborhood and to my favorite farm a few miles away.

Mostly just love old machines and especially tractors, want to clear snow and have the blade and nice chains that came with it.

And keep it around in case I get a place with more land.

And I will very much enjoy the restoration work and any mechanical work. I've been doing all my own vehicles (3 cars and a pickup) and I own 4 tractors now if you count the small Wheel Horse. 2 tractors (Farmall 140 and MF Super 90) are at my favorite farm and I'm Junior's mechanic mentor.

 

[woodman1928]

I understand that love of old mechinery i own an achitectual mill and alot of my mechinery we run on the daily basis goes back from the 1860s to the 1920s

Keep in mind a 6v starter has 12 segments /poles to the commuter and a 12v has 24 segmants poles so you need to make sure they understand you are having it converted to 12 vt not just restored. Your best bet is to buy a 12v starter from one of the parts stores.

I run 41 9n a good bit brush hogging, plowing, yard matiance, foresty work iv really set it up for forestry work and i tend to work alot at night after i get out of the mill. Having good ligjts is a must for me.

 

[bradleydavidgood]

I understand that love of old mechinery i own an achitectual mill and alot of my mechinery we run on the daily basis goes back from the 1860s to the 1920s

Keep in mind a 6v starter has 12 segments /poles to the commuter and a 12v has 24 segmants poles so you need to make sure they understand you are having it converted to 12 vt not just restored. Your best bet is to buy a 12v starter from one of the parts stores.

I run 41 9n a good bit brush hogging, plowing, yard matiance, foresty work iv really set it up for forestry work and i tend to work alot at night after i get out of the mill. Having good ligjts is a must for me.

Thanks!

 

[markdtn]

A few things to keep in mind with converting to 12v reliability wise that you may not be thinking about.
That old 6v starter will sure spin fast with 12v hooked up. The Bendix on it wont last though you'll be in a field somewhere and go to start it and bam the Bendix will let go. also that Bendix slamming into the fly wheel at those speeds can and will damage the flywheel over time

Youll have to replace the starter with a 12v stater so that it will spin slower and not damage the Bendix......

I keep hearing about dead starters when converted to 12V but I can say with absolute certainty that my dad's Jubilee was converted to 12V in 1986 and has never had 1 issue with the starter since. If it died today I would not blame the 12v.

 

[bradleydavidgood]

I keep hearing about dead starters when converted to 12V but I can say with absolute certainty that my dad's Jubilee was converted to 12V in 1986 and has never had 1 issue with the starter since. If it died today I would not blame the 12v.

Thank you. And when it was converted, nothing was done with the starter?

I did some more research last evening and for the most part I was getting the idea that problems are rare. But if a ring gear gets broken, it seems like a big job to fix that so it may be worth being cautious.

And I'd like to hear from more others who have heard either way, failure or success stories.

Thanks for sharing this!

 

[Eman85]

My 8N had no starter change and it's been 12v for about 40 years. It also has points and I can't remember the last time I changed or checked them. These tractors were whittled from solid chunks, not pieced together with folded sheet metal. Their biggest enemy are the human hands and unknowing minds.

 

[bradleydavidgood]

My 8N had no starter change and it's been 12v for about 40 years. It also has points and I can't remember the last time I changed or checked them. These tractors were whittled from solid chunks, not pieced together with folded sheet metal. Their biggest enemy are the human hands and unknowing minds.

Thanks!

 

[markdtn]

Thank you. And when it was converted, nothing was done with the starter?

I did some more research last evening and for the most part I was getting the idea that problems are rare. But if a ring gear gets broken, it seems like a big job to fix that so it may be worth being cautious.

And I'd like to hear from more others who have heard either way, failure or success stories.

Thanks for sharing this!

No. I don't think the starter has been out since the late 70s. It still runs points. From 1986 to about 2018 it had a poorly converted Delco 10si alternator with car-sized belt. In 1986 there was no internet to chase diagrams so we kind of kludged it together. It got a Chrysler ceramic resister for the coil and run it. In 2018 it got all new alternator brackets, correct B-size belt pulley, and an actual 1-wire regulator and new brushes (while it was apart) on the same alternator. With no lights the ignition system is the only electrical load so it does not need much in the way of charging.