New Holland Knotter Troubleshooting Guide

[MaddrCow]

Hey guys.

I'm hanging trouble with one knotter not knotting. What I've tried from my manual isn't helping.

I thought I remember there being a comprehensive troubleshooting guide for new Holland Knotter Troubleshooting.

No knot in the no. 1 tine on the passenger side Knotter. I've tried clocking the twine discs five different ways, new twine spring, every combination of tensions in twine And bales.

The top right haydog spring is shot, but I can't get it out. I have also manually sat there and tapped it down into place and the know still won't knot, so I'm not totally convinced that's it.

 

[Destroked 450]

I’ve got the book
Will look for it in the morning

 

[mhb@ufe]

 

[DanielW]

Here's the excerpt I have. With this guide (attached PDF) plus this video (link below), you can pretty much figure out all knotter problems. Applicable to most knotters - not just NH. Pretty much every make/model of baler from the 1940's on used Deering pattern knotters made by Rasspe, so it applies to most. Only exceptions are the Massey balers, which used their own Deering pattern knotters (not made by Rasspe) and the early IH's, up until the 430, which (unfortunately) used Mccormick pattern knotters.

Actually, now that I think about it, the Ford 530 series balers didn't use Rasspe knotters either, but they copied the Rasspe geometey so accurately it doesn't really make any difference.

 

[DanielW]

Further to above, yoy say you adjusted the twine tension, but did you adjust the bill hook or disc holder tension? If you're using plastic twine, those often need to be increased a smidge.

Apart from that, start with sharpening the twine knives, reducing the stripper to hook clearance so it just barely scrubs, make sure the grooves in the cam disc are aligned, and adjust the needle position to make sure it's placing its twine right in the disc grooves (not offset to one side). In all the knotters I work on (quite a few), those maintenance steps solve 90% of knotter problems.

Another handy way to diagnose knotter trouble is to set a go-pro on a magnetic stand looking right into the gubbins of the knotter, bale a few, then play back in slow motion.

 

[Roger in Iowa]

Hey guys.

I'm hanging trouble with one knotter not knotting. What I've tried from my manual isn't helping.

I thought I remember there being a comprehensive troubleshooting guide for new Holland Knotter Troubleshooting.

No knot in the no. 1 tine on the passenger side Knotter. I've tried clocking the twine discs five different ways, new twine spring, every combination of tensions in twine And bales.

The top right haydog spring is shot, but I can't get it out. I have also manually sat there and tapped it down into place and the know still won't knot, so I'm not totally convinced that's it.

No knot in the right side but which twine no knot? The twine on the top of the bale or the one coming up from needles?
The hay dog is probably the problem causing a tucker finger miss with no knot in needle twine..
You need to tell us which twine!

 

[DanielW]

No knot in the right side but which twine no knot? The twine on the top of the bale or the one coming up from needles?
The hay dog is probably the problem causing a tucker finger miss with no knot in needle twine..
You need to tell us which twine!

I first wondered the same thing, but in his original post, he says the #1 twine on the 'passenger side'. I interpret that as him using the New Holland manual, which refers to the #1 twine being the one over top (and I interpret the passenger side being the right-hand knotter).

 

[showcrop]

From my experience proper functioning hay dogs is right at the top of the list.

 

[MaddrCow]

Sorry, All. Yes New Holland, rightside knotter, the one by the twine bin, there is a knot in the twine brought up by the needle, but not in the one on top of the bale. It's 100% of the time, I'm using Sisal twine.

When I'm totally stumped, I usually start changing things until the problem changes, then I know at least some adjustment is doing something. It feels like there's nothing I can do that will even change they way it knots. Half formed knot on the no. 2 twine.

When I finally slowed down I noticed the twine was falling off the bill hook, BEFORE it would even knot. During one of the plunges it would slide off the tip of the bill hook. Is there a way to adjust the angle of the bill hook so it won't slide off? I noticed the knife arm on the left side seems to keep the twine slightly pushed over on to the bill hook - is that how I need to adjust this one? I've increased the twine disc tension all the way. I've increased the twine tension at the box all the way.

I feel like I've tried every variation of tension between the twine, disc, and bale chute there is, the trouble shooters I had said loosen the bale, or increase twine disc or twine tension. Right now the bale tension is what i would call "average" and the twine and twine disc are as tight as they can go.


Any tips on replacing the hay dogs? I'll replace a part to avoid banging my head against a problem, but I'm not convinced it's a hay dog issue. I could get a few random bales last year.

I replaced two needles ( horribly worn eyes) twine disc springs, twine knife blades, twine guides, cleaned and lubed everything before I started this year. I checked timing, but changed nothing.

When I was testing and pulling the twine by hand it knotted both sides great. As soon as I started using hay, no knot.

Maybe I can get some pictures and videos later this afternoon.

Gotta wait for it to be hot and miserable before I can do Hay stuff /s

 

[DanielW]

You can adjust the tension on the bill hook. Have you tried that? I'd probably back off the twine disc tension if you have it tightened all the way - it can cause a lot of hang-ups if too tight.

If the hay dogs aren't doing their job and the bale is allowed to 'back off' during knotting, it can pull the knot in some weird directions and cause grief. Haydogs should be easy to fix - undo the bolt at the base of the knotter, swing it up and out of the way, and you can access it.

I'd like to hear what your bill hook tension is, however. Sounds like it might be a little weak. Those springs that adjust the bill hook tension get weak over time, and I've seen a few broken ones. Usually from sitting in too much chaff over winters and holding onto moisture, rusting the springs. Same thing with the hay dog springs. You really want to make sure the top hay dog springs are doing their job. If they're not, if the dog is allowed to freely bounce around, and if it happens to bounce up just at the right time during the tie cycle, it can interfere with the knotter drive cam gear and cause some major breakages.

When you say it was 'falling off the bill hook before it would even knot': Was the bill hook grabbing the ends of the twine? If so and they were slipping out of the jaws, that sounds like a billhook (or tension on billhook) issue. If it wasn't even getting to the point where the jaws were grabbing, that sounds like the tucker fingers aren't doing their job and holding the twines positively against the hook.

How do the tucker fingers look? Is the spring that holds them open still there and doing its job? Very (very) common for the spring that holds the tucker fingers open to fall off and leave the tuckers just flopping around. It's the spring shown in this picture, and hooks onto the knotter frame (in this picture it's fallen off).

 

[MaddrCow]

The pin holding the spring on my hay dog is rusted frozen into the slot. There's no good way for my to really bang on it to get it out. I'll try a lot of heat. Was hoping somebody had a wiz-bang solution.

The twine, before the knot cycle is even tripped, slips off the tip of the billhook. Instead of laying on top of the bill hook. So there's no chance it'll get caught by the bill hook anyway when it starts spinning. It's like the bill hook is clocked at the 7 or 8 o'clock position, so the twine slips off, instead of at 9 or 10.

I'm not sure how to explain the bill hook tension. I did increase it last year, when this side would knot, as some times the knot would be loose and pull apart, increased it a bit and that went away, but haven't changed it since.

I had adjusted the twine finger tip in toward the twine using the adjusting bolts on the rod. When I say your comment I reviewed the twine finger adjustment procedure and realized I missed the twine finger to needle adjustment - I'll review that. Since there is a knot formed on the twine in the needle - doesn't that mean the twine tucker finger is working right, though?

 

[DanielW]

The number one twine is pulled down-stream into the bill hook, so it's not at all dependent on thr tucker fingers to be positively held over the hook - it already is. The number two twine is very much dependent over the tucker fingers to be positively held in the hook. Go to the 1:28 mark inthe video above - you'll see the #1 twine isn't at all dependent on the tucker to knot.

 

[DanielW]

Re-reading your last (and original) post, I stand corrected. I was misremembering and thknking it was the other twine thst was missing the knot. But if it is the needle twine that has the knot, yes, the tucker is probably working correctly.

 

[DanielW]

It does sound like either a twine disc holding issue, or else just dull knives. A dull knife will try and hack and gouge its way through, and often push one or both of the twines out of the hook before cutting them. Either that or a weak hook - either too little tension or worn jaws that need to be dressed. Can you send a picture of the hook?

 

[MaddrCow]

Here's a link to a couple slow mo videos of the knotter running and a picture of what I mean about it "falling off the bill hook"

I greatly appreciate this help so please let me know what other information I can give you.

I will say, I manually put the twine back over the bill hook, and it still did not form a knot. I'm beginning to suspect my knife arm is not adjusted properly.

The blades are brand new yesterday.

 

[DanielW]

While I couldn't guarantee with certainty that this is your problem, it looks to me like the twine disc tension is far too tight for sisal. As the bill hook does its roll, it needs to be able to pull some slack of the #1 twine back through the twine disc. Watch in the video animation above from about 1:28 to 1:32 and look at it pulling the #1 twine back through the disc a little. If it's gripped too tight in the disc, in will snap back and pull off the hook, or break, which I think might be what's happening with yours. Especially in your first video at about the 28-29 second mark. It really snaps off the hook with quite a 'twang' before it's supposed to.

A bit of an awkward balancing act with that disc tension. Too little and it will pull itself out as the bale lengthens during normal running. Too much and it will pop/spring like yours is. They generally don't need much tension to hold properly - as long as the twine tensioner from the box isn't set crazily aggressive.

 

[Ray,IN]

S

Thread 'Knotter issue Newholland 273 square baler (newbie help)'

Sep 25, 2018

Knot caught on bill hook. I think cam worn out need to replace bill hook(I think). Tried adjusting tension spring on cam. Looked for burs found one and sanded. Hate to buy parts and not fix issue. How do you tell when to knotter frame is worn out? I know the knife arm has to swipe the knot off. It is like the bill hook is not opening up the right time so the knife arm can clean the knot off. I do have knotter manual have tried what it suggested, but it has not helped enough.

So if bill hook tension spring adjustment not helping then cam roller worn out?

I know to change out...

• Shealray
• Replies: 27
• Forum: Implement Alley

 

[Roger in Iowa]

Hey guys.

I'm hanging trouble with one knotter not knotting. What I've tried from my manual isn't helping.

I thought I remember there being a comprehensive troubleshooting guide for new Holland Knotter Troubleshooting.

No knot in the no. 1 tine on the passenger side Knotter. I've tried clocking the twine discs five different ways, new twine spring, every combination of tensions in twine And bales.

The top right haydog spring is shot, but I can't get it out. I have also manually sat there and tapped it down into place and the know still won't knot, so I'm not totally convinced that's it.

You are getting a twine disk pullout if no know in top twine. Should be nut compressing a spring. Not the bill hook tension.

 

[MaddrCow]

So I was messing around with baler.

1) the twine routinely falls off the billhook. I think this *may* be from small loads during the plunges. The tension release tension release cycle works it down the bill hook. It some what relented by increasing tension at twine box.

2) I was able to get a couple small knots to form in small test bales with the disc tension lower. Inconsistently, But as I had the bales get longer it would get pulled out of the twine discs, so I slowly increased tension until it stopped getting pulled out, but it stopped knotting at all.

3) every time I pull the twine and keep tension by hand, 100% without fail It WILL knot. So somehow there's simultaneously too much tension it slips out of the disc, but it's not keeping enough through the knotting cycle to form the knot. Is my bale tension too high?

My theory is hand loading the bales isn't doing it right, not enough of a load. So I'm going to try stuffing the pickup and see if under full load and speed it does better.

 

[MaddrCow]

It made two bales right away. But then it slipped out of the twine discs.

Think the bale chamber tension was too high. But at this point I'm kind of out of ideas.