NAA Rear Wheel Lug Nut Torque?

[sheath]

Question regarding the Ford NAA tractor:
Does anyone have factory information regarding rear wheel lug nut torque, and whether the torque spec is wet or dry?
I'm only looking for Ford factory specs. Not guesses, or "good and tight".

I've been through the NAA owner's manual, factory service manual, factory parts manual, I&T FO-19. Could not find any specs.
Did a search here and found this one thread

Found this web page that shows 80 lbs/ft. No mention wet or dry. 80 lbs/ft for a 5/8 NF bolt seems very low to me, unless Ford specified the torque as a wet torque. Then it makes sense. Hanging a Vari-Weight set on the wheels, and would prefer not to guess, based on "good old boy" info.

TIA,
Scott

 

[Sean in PA]

I don't have an answer for you, but I've never heard of the torque for any lug nut for a wheel specified with wet torque. The Operator's manual does not specify any type of lubricant to be used on the threads. There are 8 lug nuts on each wheel and 80 ft.lbs. for each of them seems about right to me.

 

[sheath]

Thanks Sean. It is not uncommon on large industrial equipment to see wet torque specs. Normally I'd expect to see a dry torque for this size and thread pitch bolt at 130 lbs/ft+.
It is the slight stretch in bolt shaft that keeps things from coming loose. Hence my question regarding actual Ford specs.
To be fair, just because those specs are posted on the internet doesn't make them gospel either. Who knows how far back someone had to go in Ford history to get that spec.
I'll wait a day or so to see if someone has this tid-bit squirreled away waiting for some overzealous mutt to ask.

 

[Tony Jacobs]

Thanks Sean. It is not uncommon on large industrial equipment to see wet torque specs. Normally I'd expect to see a dry torque for this size and thread pitch bolt at 130 lbs/ft+.
It is the slight stretch in bolt shaft that keeps things from coming loose. Hence my question regarding actual Ford specs.
To be fair, just because those specs are posted on the internet doesn't make them gospel either. Who knows how far back someone had to go in Ford history to get that spec.
I'll wait a day or so to see if someone has this tid-bit squirreled away waiting for some overzealous mutt to ask.

The segmented pie weights were NOT designed when the NAA’s were in production and are NOT recommended by Ford for use on the NAA’s because of the poorly designed 8N style hub and axle setup which had never stayed tight to begin with . The Ford recommended weight was the 3-piece units that bolted with the bolts that hold both the rim , the center and the weights together same as what is recommended on the N-series of tractors weighing in at 300lbs per side . Once the 600/601/2000 series of tractors Ford recommended the Light Duty 30lb segment weights because of the small diameter axle shafts , unlike the 2” diameter shafts of the 800/801/4000 series tractors which used the 45lb weights . Since I knew many of the Engineers that were there when these tractors were built I have never seen a spec for wheel lug nut torque and definately no wet spec like on my 1981 Fiat Allis FR35 Loader as you mentioned . Mostly all the early tractors regardless of brand didn’t even have hardened bolts on them to begin with prior to around 1954 when Ford started using grade 5 bolts .

 

[a49deere]

I don't have an answer for you, but I've never heard of the torque for any lug nut for a wheel specified with wet torque. The Operator's manual does not specify any type of lubricant to be used on the threads. There are 8 lug nuts on each wheel and 80 ft.lbs. for each of them seems about right to me.

two grunts on a 1/2" breaker bar!!

 

[sheath]

The segmented pie weights were NOT designed when the NAA’s were in production and are NOT recommended by Ford for use on the NAA’s because of the poorly designed 8N style hub and axle setup which had never stayed tight to begin with . The Ford recommended weight was the 3-piece units that bolted with the bolts that hold both the rim , the center and the weights together same as what is recommended on the N-series of tractors weighing in at 300lbs per side . Once the 600/601/2000 series of tractors Ford recommended the Light Duty 30lb segment weights because of the small diameter axle shafts , unlike the 2” diameter shafts of the 800/801/4000 series tractors which used the 45lb weights . Since I knew many of the Engineers that were there when these tractors were built I have never seen a spec for wheel lug nut torque and definately no wet spec like on my 1981 Fiat Allis FR35 Loader as you mentioned . Mostly all the early tractors regardless of brand didn’t even have hardened bolts on them to begin with prior to around 1954 when Ford started using grade 5 bolts .

I would love to find a restored 864 or 865.
Thinking about going to the National event in SD this August. Looks like a pretty good time.

 

[sheath]

two grunts on a 1/2" breaker bar!!

Now that would make me fall out of the chair with laughter if read in a Ford service manual.
'70s-'90 Japanese service manuals had some pretty funny stuff. Just from lack of translation skills. Definitely made "reading the instructions" more fun.

 

[sheath]

Installed the whole set of Pie Weights yesterday. Trial fit only.

Mostly wanted to see how a complete install would go, and drive the tractor around the yard a bit.
This package works out to 417lbs per side (average of 30 lbs each weight). A bit much (like 100 lbs too much weight per side... lol). I don't plan to run the tractor this way because:

• I want easy access to the schrader valves. That eliminates one weight per side.
• As Tony noted it is way too much weight for this axle. That eliminates 3 pieces per side at a minimum.
• Don't need this much weight on the ground, except in very rare occasions to lift a pallet off truck.

4 weights off per wheel will drop the added weight to just under 300lbs/side. The distance between the front axle spindle and center line of the bucket is ~59". The Wheel base of the tractor is ~74". Slightly over 1:1 lift ratio with the bucket just off the ground.
Not sure I'd want to put more than 800 lbs in that bucket. Would be a pretty big load on the front axle trunion with the added rear wheel weights.

Few interesting things I learned with this specific set of weights.

• The range of weight on the individual pie weights was broader than I expected with the heaviest weight at 33lbs 4oz, lightest 29lbs 6oz.
• There are at least two different mfgs of the pie weight pieces.
• The two different discs are also very different in weight (49lbs compared to 32lbs 4 oz)
• Happily surprised by how easy install and removal of individual pie weights went.

Used a postal scale to weigh each piece and wrote that weight on each part. Put all that info into a spread sheet to come up with the optimum weight placement. That balances the weight on both sides, as well as balances the circumferential weight placement (very important when it comes to auto-cross competition )
Ended up being able to get the right/left balance within 2 ozs, and allows taking off weights while maintaining both right/to left and circumferential balance.
What would we do without spreadsheets and postal scales.

Ran the tractor out of gas before getting a chance to drive it around. Will get some gas tomorrow and see how it feels before removing 4 pieces per side.
Appreciate Tony's input regarding axle and lug loosening, which supports my initial thoughts. Hence the question that started this thread. So I'll be cautious of the potential pitfalls with this setup.

Happy Tractoring!

Scott

 

[Tony Jacobs]

Installed the whole set of Pie Weights yesterday. Trial fit only.
View attachment 158272
Mostly wanted to see how a complete install would go, and drive the tractor around the yard a bit.
This package works out to 417lbs per side (average of 30 lbs each weight). A bit much (like 100 lbs too much weight per side... lol). I don't plan to run the tractor this way because:

• I want easy access to the schrader valves. That eliminates one weight per side.
• As Tony noted it is way too much weight for this axle. That eliminates 3 pieces per side at a minimum.
• Don't need this much weight on the ground, except in very rare occasions to lift a pallet off truck.

4 weights off per wheel will drop the added weight to just under 300lbs/side. The distance between the front axle spindle and center line of the bucket is ~59". The Wheel base of the tractor is ~74". Slightly over 1:1 lift ratio with the bucket just off the ground.
Not sure I'd want to put more than 800 lbs in that bucket. Would be a pretty big load on the front axle trunion with the added rear wheel weights.

Few interesting things I learned with this specific set of weights.

• The range of weight on the individual pie weights was broader than I expected with the heaviest weight at 33lbs 4oz, lightest 29lbs 6oz.
• There are at least two different mfgs of the pie weight pieces.
• The two different discs are also very different in weight (49lbs compared to 32lbs 4 oz)
• Happily surprised by how easy install and removal of individual pie weights went.

Used a postal scale to weigh each piece and wrote that weight on each part. Put all that info into a spread sheet to come up with the optimum weight placement. That balances the weight on both sides, as well as balances the circumferential weight placement (very important when it comes to auto-cross competition )
Ended up being able to get the right/left balance within 2 ozs, and allows taking off weights while maintaining both right/to left and circumferential balance.
What would we do without spreadsheets and postal scales.
View attachment 158274

Ran the tractor out of gas before getting a chance to drive it around. Will get some gas tomorrow and see how it feels before removing 4 pieces per side.
Appreciate Tony's input regarding axle and lug loosening, which supports my initial thoughts. Hence the question that started this thread. So I'll be cautious of the potential pitfalls with this setup.

Happy Tractoring!

Scott

Hello Scott , I will add another bit of information for you about the pie weights since I don’t know where you are located . There is East Coast weights Central States Weights and West Coast weights . Ford had Foundaries producing weights all over the country so that they could ship locally to the Dealers . The biggest problem is that every group of Foundaries made them a little bit different and the pieces DO NOT Interchange with each other . When you were talking about different weights of the mounting plates besides the Foundary differences there is Heavy Duty and Light Duty plates . The Heavy Duty plates are ribbed for strength on the back side and Light Duty are not they are just smooth . When you were speaking about access to the Valve Stems there is special segments called cutouts that allow you to put air into the tires without removing or leaving segments off . East Coast Foundaries marked their weights with Ford’s W-part number on them . I’m sure you know the old rule of thumb regarding counterweighting equipment that is for every pound of lift you need a pound of counterweight . Do you have Specs for that Loader I know it’s not a Ford or a Wagner but there is many other brands also like Lord , Freeman , Superior and the list goes on . Depending on max lift capacity and what your plans with the tractor will depend on what you end up using for total weight . Are you running Loaded tires or are they dry ? You can also run a three point hitch counterweight for extra weight and removable weight when you dont need it .

 

[Tony Jacobs]

Hello Scott , I will add another bit of information for you about the pie weights since I don’t know where you are located . There is East Coast weights Central States Weights and West Coast weights . Ford had Foundaries producing weights all over the country so that they could ship locally to the Dealers . The biggest problem is that every group of Foundaries made them a little bit different and the pieces DO NOT Interchange with each other . When you were talking about different weights of the mounting plates besides the Foundary differences there is Heavy Duty and Light Duty plates . The Heavy Duty plates are ribbed for strength on the back side and Light Duty are not they are just smooth . When you were speaking about access to the Valve Stems there is special segments called cutouts that allow you to put air into the tires without removing or leaving segments off . East Coast Foundaries marked their weights with Ford’s W-part number on them . I’m sure you know the old rule of thumb regarding counterweighting equipment that is for every pound of lift you need a pound of counterweight . Do you have Specs for that Loader I know it’s not a Ford or a Wagner but there is many other brands also like Lord , Freeman , Superior and the list goes on . Depending on max lift capacity and what your plans with the tractor will depend on what you end up using for total weight . Are you running Loaded tires or are they dry ? You can also run a three point hitch counterweight for extra weight and removable weight when you dont need it .

I forgot to mention you mentioned the Slight Amount of Bolt Stretch is what actually keeps the bolts tight . If you have enough experience which I am betting you do from some of your comments you can actually feel the stretch in a bolt when you tighten them and if you are really good you should be able to tighten a series of bolts and be within a couple of pounds of torque on all of them .

 

[sheath]

Great info Tony. Thank you!
This "set" appears to be made up of loose parts. To support your comment regarding the different mfgs of these parts:
One plate is the light duty, other plate is the heavy duty version. Some weights have the mfgs name embossed others are just plain with no writing.
Was lucky enough that all the weights in this package will work on either plate. I'd read a post (probably from you) in regards to that not always being the case.
Picked this up in Missouri. Great young guy that goes around buying old parts, and resales them. Wyatt's Tractor Sales just south of Owensville, MO.

The loader on this tractor is a Davis 101 Loader. Was able to download the Owner's, Service and Parts manuals as pdfs from the Jensales web site. Gave them a quick perusal, but haven't spent "quality time" reading them yet.

Yes, my arm has definitely become "calibrated" over the decades.
I still like to use a torque wrench though. Probably from my time in the field supporting engineers. I have several that stay locked away in their cases until the opportunities present themselves.

*** ETA: That last line should read "I have several torque wrenches that stay locked away in their cases until the opportunities present themselves."
We keep the engineers locked in the basement. ***