farmall M live hydraulic questions

[john richter]

I just bought a farmall M, has about a mile of hydraulic lines on it. I don't know anything about M hydraulics other than how the old belly pumps work. My tractor appears to have an M&W "standard" live hydraulic kit. Does anybody know if there is a manual about those systems? I think the belly pump is relegated to functioning as a reservoir, with the outlet ports converted to return lines? There is a very large suction hose on the bottom of pump with dual filters. Up top is a Char-Lynn valve system which I think may have been used for rear remotes or a 3 point. Tractor has a McCormick Model 30 power loader with front and rear hydraulic lines to get extra fluid capacity in the system, with what I assume are unpressurized lines going into the belly pump side ports. I think there is a completely independent hydraulic system for a Behlen power steering unit, which has what I assume is a standard Behlen reservoir, with suction hose leading to Char-Lynn belt driven pump, pressure line back to the ps unit.

Questions:

1) Loader only goes up about four feet, nice and even and easy, then stalls out, I assume low on fluid?
2) How does a person add hydraulic oil into this system, like where is a fill port? And how do I know when its full?
3) Behlen unit not working, though I haven't checked the reservoir level yet. Has anybody ever heard of a Char-Lynn belt pump running a Behlen unit?
4) how rare are these old Char-Lynn valves? I've never seen these before

Anyway, thanks in advance for any advice! My goal with this project is to get the power steering working and get the loader to at least go up to about 5 to 6 feet to make it more useable. I do have an old single action cylinder on a wagon that I would like a port option for, but I'm hesitant to hook that up until I know what is the correct line to hook it to.

 

[paul]

Haven’t seen such a conversion. Interesting.

Are those levers even reachable from the seat? Maybe just perspective of the camera angle, but looks like you would have to walk up to the side of the tractor to move them.

While it’s probably just fine on an old low pressure system see it all the time, all those galvanized water pipe fittings are not the best for a tractor hydraulic system, and would be risky on a more modern higher pressure tractor. Just a mention….

Paul

 

[Farmall M 248]

Don’t know where to start ,but you can make it a simpler system with less hoses because it looks like the last owner did some cobbling.
There is quite a few manuals out there for the live hydraulic pumps ,so I would check like eBay because they have a lot of that kind of stuff.
On the power steering my guess it is the torque converter ,it would be easier and cheaper just to take that system off.
On the valve it should have a M and W 2 way valve ,but it probably didn’t work if the loader is not a trip bucket .
If I remember right the belly pump should hold around 6 quarts but with all those lines I would probably put more in then that and it’s a mess on yours but I circled the pipe where the oil would go in.

 

[wh]

You can clean that system up a whole lot. Have a live pump on a H with rear remotes and 3 pt hitch. I started out using the belly pump as a reservoir but decided I needed more oil capacity. Built a 7 gallon tank and mounted it over the right rear axle housing. Have my 2 spool control valve on top of it. Oil does not get hot and everything works perfect. Thought I had some pictures on phone but cannot find them. Can get some if you like.

 

[used red MN]

You have a system of which I was unaware of its existence until earlier this month a new member posted about it on his tractor. The hose I circled in the photo feeds pressure from the live pump into the belly pump system. Apparently the drive shaft and gears of the belly pump were removed and M&W made some type of assembly that inserted in its place and fed the flow/pressure from the live pump into the belly pump through that. Here is a link to the other thread D Slater identified it and gave a short explanation of it. Previous YT thread on this system.
Since I see no rods attached to the Charlynn valves I take it you are raising the loader by the original belly pump rod activating the belly pump valve, which still works with this type of system. Not sure without seeing it all in person how those Charlynn valves are connected into the system. Unless the feed to the belly pump is “power beyond” through the Charlynn valves. BTW those Charlynn valves are not that rare, many of them were placed on tractors that were converted to live hydraulics, my M has one.
I believe Farmall… in reply 3 has the correct fill point, definitely not a proper setup by any means. I am not sure how the air will be displaced when you add oil that way. Looks like you need a funnel and a rubber hose to slip on it. It maybe possible that if you feed oil to it with a funnel as I suggested and raise the loader at the same time it will suck the oil in due to the displacement in the cylinders changing as to rods extend. Then when raised close to valve and lower the loader or it will burp oil out. Since it seems like the “engineer” on this project left no way to read the oil lever I would continue adding oil a quart at a time until the loader raises full stroke and leave it at that.
As far as an Charlynn/Eaton pump running a Behlen PS that is not going unheard of either. I assume you know a Behlen system sits above the gas tank. A Charlynn PS is up under the hood mounting on a modified gauge mount plate.

 

[john richter]

here are a few more photos

Haven’t seen such a conversion. Interesting.

Are those levers even reachable from the seat? Maybe just perspective of the camera angle, but looks like you would have to walk up to the side of the tractor to move them.

While it’s probably just fine on an old low pressure system see it all the time, all those galvanized water pipe fittings are not the best for a tractor hydraulic system, and would be risky on a more modern higher pressure tractor. Just a mention….

Paul

levers not reachable from seat, though the control rod brace from driver seat has two empty rod holders on the same guide for belly pump rod. Also, thanks for advice about the galvanized not good for high pressure. I'm guessing the M&W conversion may make about 1,000 psi, which is a small upgrade from factory belly pump that is about 750 psi.

 

[john richter]

You can clean that system up a whole lot. Have a live pump on a H with rear remotes and 3 pt hitch. I started out using the belly pump as a reservoir but decided I needed more oil capacity. Built a 7 gallon tank and mounted it over the right rear axle housing. Have my 2 spool control valve on top of it. Oil does not get hot and everything works perfect. Thought I had some pictures on phone but cannot find them. Can get some if you like.

Yes, I think your perspective is right, this system needs some reduction here.

 

[john richter]

You have a system of which I was unaware of its existence until earlier this month a new member posted about it on his tractor. The hose I circled in the photo feeds pressure from the live pump into the belly pump system. Apparently the drive shaft and gears of the belly pump were removed and M&W made some type of assembly that inserted in its place and fed the flow/pressure from the live pump into the belly pump through that. Here is a link to the other thread D Slater identified it and gave a short explanation of it. Previous YT thread on this system.
Since I see no rods attached to the Charlynn valves I take it you are raising the loader by the original belly pump rod activating the belly pump valve, which still works with this type of system. Not sure without seeing it all in person how those Charlynn valves are connected into the system. Unless the feed to the belly pump is “power beyond” through the Charlynn valves. BTW those Charlynn valves are not that rare, many of them were placed on tractors that were converted to live hydraulics, my M has one.
I believe Farmall… in reply 3 has the correct fill point, definitely not a proper setup by any means. I am not sure how the air will be displaced when you add oil that way. Looks like you need a funnel and a rubber hose to slip on it. It maybe possible that if you feed oil to it with a funnel as I suggested and raise the loader at the same time it will suck the oil in due to the displacement in the cylinders changing as to rods extend. Then when raised close to valve and lower the loader or it will burp oil out. Since it seems like the “engineer” on this project left no way to read the oil lever I would continue adding oil a quart at a time until the loader raises full stroke and leave it at that.
As far as an Charlynn/Eaton pump running a Behlen PS that is not going unheard of either. I assume you know a Behlen system sits above the gas tank. A Charlynn PS is up under the hood mounting on a modified gauge mount plate. View attachment 158681

thanks. yes, loader hydraulics operated by original belly pump control rod. I think the previous owner built out a homemade mess of hoses and valves to work a 3 point hitch, to which I think the (not rare) Char Lynn valves were for. Super helpful advice about filler location, I'll try one quart at a time and see if I can get the bucket to go a bit higher and call it good if that does it. The tractor has a Behlen unit above the gas tank.