New Idea 4308 Wheel V Rake

[ford4wd08]

Anyone have any feedback on this rake?

I believe it to be a rebranded H&S V-8 hay rake.

I understand it is not a high capacity rake but think it will do ok in my small hay operation.

 

[Alvin 41]

Anyone have any feedback on this rake?

I believe it to be a rebranded H&S V-8 hay rake.

I understand it is not a high capacity rake but think it will do ok in my small hay operation.

I used a 30 year old Hesston (H&S) 12 wheel rake for many years .Just had to rerplace broken teeth .

 

[rrlund]

There's only about two ways to build a wheel rake. That's one of them.

 

[ford4wd08]

I ended up winning it at auction. It is not a high-capacity rake but looks to be a well-built carted rake and has windrow and raking width adjustments that seem to make sense and will work. Also, would fit my MF150 I plan on raking with, only one remote and one cylinder to actuate with the slower hydraulics of the 100 series MF.

I did have one question from the owner's manual though. It says if you don't have float mode on your hydraulic remote, that you need to install an additional hose and use two for the cylinder.

That seemed counterproductive to me at least in the way I was thinking? On a 3 pt disc mower you only have one hose and the cylinder can float unless you are picking it up?

Also, the holes are slotted on the linkage, isn't that what Kuhn did on their Speedrakes GII's so you didn't have to have a float position on your hydraulic SCV?

 

[rrlund]

Those notches that you have circled should take care of it I would think. I added hoses to my Gehl so I can lift one side at a time. Both cylinders are two way and I don't have hydraulic float. Mine has a big bolt and nut on each side to adjust how low it'll go. You want those out to where it doesn't put a lot of weight down on the tines.

 

[rrlund]

Just another thought, you bought the one in the first picture right? WIth only one hose, there shouldn't be any down pressure, so it should float as is shouldn't it?

 

[ford4wd08]

Just another thought, you bought the one in the first picture right? WIth only one hose, there shouldn't be any down pressure, so it should float as is shouldn't it?

Correct, yes that is what I was thinking as well.

Just trying to figure out why the owner's manual would want you to install another hose if you don't have the float position on a hydraulic remote?

I'm going to try it and see how it works before I would put another hose on it.

 

[rrlund]

Ya, it doesn't make sense to me. It was made the way it is and somebody has been using it that way. I'm confused by what the book says too.

 

[ford4wd08]

So, I got the rake home and raked some with it yesterday evening.

I don't think the other hydraulic line is required, but I'm going to add it anyways. It is plenty fast on pickup of the rake, but painfully slow on the lowering of the rake wheels. I'm guessing the cylinder sort of gets fluid locked and it really has nowhere to go. Maybe on a float valve it will move the fluid out of the way a lot faster?

Anyways an easy enough fix.

 

[rrlund]

So, I got the rake home and raked some with it yesterday evening.

I don't think the other hydraulic line is required, but I'm going to add it anyways. It is plenty fast on pickup of the rake, but painfully slow on the lowering of the rake wheels. I'm guessing the cylinder sort of gets fluid locked and it really has nowhere to go. Maybe on a float valve it will move the fluid out of the way a lot faster?

Anyways an easy enough fix.

You don't want it dropping too fast so it slams down on the ground. You'll break tines.

 

[ford4wd08]

You don't want it dropping too fast so it slams down on the ground. You'll break tines.

I understand that, but at least I would be able to control speed with the valve.

 

[Tx Jim]

After using several different models of wheel rakes in my 35 yr custom hay baling career I can guarantee you a wheel rake that the rake wheels push hay in front of wheels will perform much better & make a better, more uniform windrow than rake wheels that pull the hay & have rake wheel spindles closer to loose hay. Also with high capacity rake raking width & windrow width both can be easily independently adjusted

 

[rrlund]

I understand that, but at least I would be able to control speed with the valve.

I'm inclined to believe there's a restrictor in one of those cylinders. I put three more hoses on mine so I have two way and can raise and lower each side separate. That part works great, but one side is still awful slow. The other side is almost too fast. Doesn't matter which tractor I put on it, the same thing happens.

 

[ford4wd08]

I'm inclined to believe there's a restrictor in one of those cylinders. I put three more hoses on mine so I have two way and can raise and lower each side separate. That part works great, but one side is still awful slow. The other side is almost too fast. Doesn't matter which tractor I put on it, the same thing happens.

I know for a fact my old hay rake had a restrictor on one hose for the cylinder.

I can do similar; I'll fine tune this setup to get it how I like.

 

[farmersamm]

A one way cylinder generally has a restrictor in the line for some implements. Your 3pt disc mower comes to mind. It prevents the mower from crashing to the ground when you lower it.............but on the flip side......it also makes raising the mower slower. At least on my Krone. Same is probably true for your rake.

If your mower requires float, USE IT IF YOU HAVE IT. Engineer a float system if you don't.

Otherwise, if your tractor doesn't have float, even though you may not see the mower bouncing on the cylinder....................it's putting stress on it, and every other component. Disc mowers have to float. Without float, the mower is suspended on the cylinder rod. The rod is locked in position by the spool valve if you don't have float.

I had a long running, sometimes vehement, argument about this with a fellow from the UK. He never backed down, and power to him. His equipment, his choice.

A rake might be more tolerant to being locked up...........but I'm not sure. Most rakes, although light, are flimsy. Considerable mass is contained in that rake bar. lot of stress on lightweight components if it constantly bounces in a restricted manner.

 

[farmersamm]

I'm looking at the cylinder that comes with your rake. Its a 2 way cylinder. Apparently it comes, shipped, with a vent plug at the piston end. This would allow air to move in/out of the cylinder on the dead side if used as a 1 way cylinder. Otherwise trapped air would prevent the cylinder from retracting.

If you hook a second hose to your cylinder, it appears that you're converting it back to a 2 way cylinder. Pressure on both sides of the piston. You'd now have down pressure............which sounds somewhat risky. Pretty easy to put too much down pressure on the rakes. It's up to you how you want to run it.

A simple schematic of a float system.

If your tractor doesn't have float, the valve prevents the implement from lowering when the lever is in neutral. Definitely not a float situation.

You need to isolate the valve, and provide a return line to the hydraulic reservoir to allow free movement of fluid in/out of the rod side of the cylinder. This allows the rod to travel, at will, in and out of the cylinder. It's floating.

You could build a manual valve, but I chose a solenoid controlled valve so I can control it from the cab. Somewhat pricey..........but cheaper than equipment repairs.

If you have a mill, clamp blocks for the pipe nipples can be nicely fabricated. You could do this in other ways.

Because I don't have room on the tractor for the valve, it was mounted on the mower caddy.

Controlled in the cab.

Fluid has to be able to freely move out of the rod end, and return to the reservoir.

I don't need to raise the mower, unless I have to clear an obstruction. I leave it on the ground the whole day...........because I have high cut skids that prevent the cutter bar from contacting downed crop. The same wouldn't be true for your rake........it has to be raised.

 

[ford4wd08]

I'm looking at the cylinder that comes with your rake. Its a 2 way cylinder. Apparently it comes, shipped, with a vent plug at the piston end. This would allow air to move in/out of the cylinder on the dead side if used as a 1 way cylinder. Otherwise trapped air would prevent the cylinder from retracting.

If you hook a second hose to your cylinder, it appears that you're converting it back to a 2 way cylinder. Pressure on both sides of the piston. You'd now have down pressure............which sounds somewhat risky. Pretty easy to put too much down pressure on the rakes. It's up to you how you want to run it.

A simple schematic of a float system.

View attachment 161776

If your tractor doesn't have float, the valve prevents the implement from lowering when the lever is in neutral. Definitely not a float situation.

You need to isolate the valve, and provide a return line to the hydraulic reservoir to allow free movement of fluid in/out of the rod side of the cylinder. This allows the rod to travel, at will, in and out of the cylinder. It's floating.

View attachment 161777

You could build a manual valve, but I chose a solenoid controlled valve so I can control it from the cab. Somewhat pricey..........but cheaper than equipment repairs.

View attachment 161778

If you have a mill, clamp blocks for the pipe nipples can be nicely fabricated. You could do this in other ways.

View attachment 161779

Because I don't have room on the tractor for the valve, it was mounted on the mower caddy.

View attachment 161780

Controlled in the cab.

View attachment 161781

Fluid has to be able to freely move out of the rod end, and return to the reservoir.

View attachment 161782

I don't need to raise the mower, unless I have to clear an obstruction. I leave it on the ground the whole day...........because I have high cut skids that prevent the cutter bar from contacting downed crop. The same wouldn't be true for your rake........it has to be raised.

If I was to add a line, it would be because that is what the owner's manual says to do without a float position. Also, it the slots for the pins of the cylinder/linkage mounting helps with movement.

I think there is a restrictor in the line as it goes into the cylinder. I'm raking with a MF 150 and a remote feed from the transmission top cover.

I would assume a one-way cylinder would go up and down at the same speed. Maybe it is worthwhile to put the vent out make sure it is clear and not plugged.

 

[Jim.ME]

Does the second port in the cylinder Have vent in it (as it should for one way operation) or a plug which is wrong?

Are you using the TS300 type diverter valve on your MF 150? It should work fine we rake (vee with single acting cylinders) with a 245 and a 255 using that set up with no issues.

Where do you have the hydraulic response speed set?

 

[ford4wd08]

Does the second port in the cylinder Have vent in it (as it should for one way operation) or a plug which is wrong?

Are you using the TS300 type diverter valve on your MF 150? It should work fine we rake (vee with single acting cylinders) with a 245 and a 255 using that set up with no issues.

Where do you have the hydraulic response speed set?

Yes to the diverter, and a Cross spool valve.

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/TS200BA_Valve_11670.htm

I didn't think about the hydraulic response speed.... That would be a great place to start!

The speed it raises is fine; it is just slow to lower.

 

[farmersamm]

Yes to the diverter, and a Cross spool valve.

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/TS200BA_Valve_11670.htm

I didn't think about the hydraulic response speed.... That would be a great place to start!

The speed it raises is fine; it is just slow to lower.

Slow lowering might be because the rake is inherently light. You're depending on gravity when lowering a 1 way cylinder.