Just free'd up my first "stuck" engine---what to expect?

[atlarge54]

Against my better judgment I purchased a "pretty" tractor knowing it had taken on some water. The tractor is a 1943 Allis C upon teardown it appears the bore is 3.25" instead of 3.375" which is no big deal since this poor girl was doomed to parade duty.

Today after a week of soaking I went to work with wire brushes, cylinder hone etc. wood blocks and a medium sized hammer. After getting small increments of motion back and forth with continual cleaning I believe the engine is completely free to spin and I don't think any ring lands were broken.

It's a bit hard to believe some rings aren't stuck, but I'm trying to take the easy way out since it's doubtful this tractor will ever see much work. Tomorrow I plan to torque down the head and check compression.

What are the odds this tractor will smoke when running?

What are the chances I'll need to pull the pistons to free up the rings?

What kind of reading should I expect on my compression gauge?

 

[a49deere]

so, the bore was smaller than expected? You're asking a lot of  questions. I guess you'll have to get it running and find out!!

 

[atlarge54]

so, the bore was smaller than expected? You're asking a lot of  questions. I guess you'll have to get it running and find out!!

The bore size is no big deal----just indicates that it's lower displacement engine likely a B instead of a C.

I've seen a lot of posts here over the years regarding "stuck" engines but not much feedback on how these engines actually performed after they were loosened up.

 

[a49deere]

So, I guess you'll have to get it running and let us all find out! Good luck with you project!! I guess it all depends on what you're expecting! I unstuck a 420 crawler once and stuck cylinder had about 40 lbs. less compression than one that wasn't stuck. Ran like it was 40 lbs. less on one cylinder! You will have to be the judge of the outcome, It's your tractor, hopefully it's for the better.

 

[sotxbill]

Ive had some run really good, good enough to do light duty chores. A little smoke occasionally, a little blowby, but still a very handy tractor. Have had others barely run, smoke horrible bad, hard to start and lots of blowby. The ones that ran really bad, turns out, were already really bad shape when they were setup.... Conversly........... . . I think your only gamble is a head gasket, and would do exactly what your doing. Then best case, you can test out everything else to see how it works and decide further.

 

[47fivewindow]

I agree that a lot depends on how good they were when they were parked. We just broke a 140 international loose that bore measured very good so we took a chance. It runs like new. Its a gamble. Drs Love are very luck at motor CPR. They have broken loose more than I can count with good results. Go for it!

 

[Dick L]

Normally when setting where water gets in through the exaust you will have two cylinders rusted worse than the others. the valve seats on those two cylinders will be pitted also. Even setting and stuck without much water the rings will be stuck in the pistons where the rings will not expand out tight in the cylinder walls. I don't see in your picture a lot of pits. The C only used 3 3/8" pistons. The B used 3 1/4 pistons in the beginning.
If you get to the point that you remove the pistons and want to remove the rings without breaking them I had the best results in soaking them in used motor oil. Then lightly tapping on them with a brass hammer. When the ring looks 90% loose it will still snap if you try to pry them out.

 

[atlarge54]

Normally when setting where water gets in through the exaust you will have two cylinders rusted worse than the others. the valve seats on those two cylinders will be pitted also. Even setting and stuck without much water the rings will be stuck in the pistons where the rings will not expand out tight in the cylinder walls. I don't see in your picture a lot of pits. The C only used 3 3/8" pistons. The B used 3 1/4 pistons in the beginning.
If you get to the point that you remove the pistons and want to remove the rings without breaking them I had the best results in soaking them in used motor oil. Then lightly tapping on them with a brass hammer. When the ring looks 90% loose it will still snap if you try to pry them out.

Yep, #2 and #4 were exposed the other two were clean. The head was pretty decent, new guides, I lapped all the valves and doubt they’ll be a problem. Thanks for the warning on the rings. If I get into this too deep it’ll probably get new or different engine components.

 

[Tgrasher]

It depends on at what point of the stroke the pistons were setting with the water. If lower, your compression will be higher.

 

[Dick L]

Yep, #2 and #4 were exposed the other two were clean. The head was pretty decent, new guides, I lapped all the valves and doubt they’ll be a problem. Thanks for the warning on the rings. If I get into this too deep it’ll probably get new or different engine components.

The stuck engine album was rebuilt with most all used measured to be within manufactures specs. I used that tractor to mow and chop grass and hay to feed horses for 12 years. I did this because many guys at the time were buying the little tractors and advise was to buy new parts. I bought a couple of those project tractors that could not be completed because of lack of money. Most have to have someone to help measure and know how and where to measure. I bought sleeves at a scrap yard for 10 bucks each that were in spec after cleaned up and honed. Pistons with rods for the same money. I took my mics with me. I was able to put rings square in the sleeves and measure the gap with a feeler gage to find rings for that cylinder sleeve. It can be done without selling the kids and their dog to get the job done. I stayed in the center or above on all used part specs. It takes time but I found it fun!

 

[Mule Meat]

If I were going as far as pulling the pistons.
I would at least hone the cylinders and install a new set of rings.

Using the old rings. One or the other will happen. Either the rings will not seal and you will have an unpowered oil burner, or they will wear new grooves and the parts will have more wear than they have now shorting their life.

Why take that chance while you have it torn down?

A new set of rings for a 3.25" bore runs around $170. Can't say why they cost twice as much as rings for a 3.75" bore.

 

[Jim.ME]

If I were going as far as pulling the pistons.
I would at least hone the cylinders and install a new set of rings.

Using the old rings. One or the other will happen. Either the rings will not seal and you will have an unpowered oil burner, or they will wear new grooves and the parts will have more wear than they have now shorting their life.

Why take that chance while you have it torn down?

A new set of rings for a 3.25" bore runs around $170. Can't say why they cost twice as much as rings for a 3.75" bore.

You might want to edit your post. I think you meant 3.375" bore, 3-3/8" not 3-3/4".

 

[Dick L]

If I were going as far as pulling the pistons.
I would at least hone the cylinders and install a new set of rings.

Using the old rings. One or the other will happen. Either the rings will not seal and you will have an unpowered oil burner, or they will wear new grooves and the parts will have more wear than they have now shorting their life.

Why take that chance while you have it torn down?

A new set of rings for a 3.25" bore runs around $170. Can't say why they cost twice as much as rings for a 3.75" bore.

(A new set of rings for a 3.25" bore runs around $170. Can't say why they cost twice as much as rings for a 3.75" bore.) ----Volume---
In most cases used rings would be a no no. I would never put a used ring in that did not have the expansion needed or the ends ground for a proper gap and fit to the bore it would be used in. My comments could leave the wrong impression. Having access to used rings that could be used would be a problem for most. I stand corrected!

 

[Jimmydog]

I've had two tractors with stuck problems. The TO-30 wasn't "stuck" but the rings were stuck in the ring grooves. After soaking 4 or 5 months in tranny fluid one or two of em let loose enough to get her running. Once that happened the heat cool cycles freed up the rest. It's a great little tractor doesn't smoke at all. Starts easy still has the 6volt system.

IH 460 was barn find; stored in a barn for two years, just throw a battery in her and a shot of gas and she'll fire right up..........yeah right. only thing about that, that was true, was that it was stored in a barn. Stuck tight. forget how long it soaked for, maybe a couple weeks and a couple gentle tugs with the Massive Ferguson and she broke loose. Again the heat cool cycles got her so that every time I ran her she ran a little better every time. Borescope showed one cylinder scoured the rest okay. It has a little blow by but for as much as I use it I can live with it. Starts easy and doesn't smoke nearly as much as it did at first, in fact hardly at all given her age.

If you're not going to go full rebuild then like somebody else said, you're only out a head gasket and your time. Good luck and let us know how it turns out for better or for worse.

 

[atlarge54]

Much to my surprise I had it running today. I used the old head gasket, adjusted the valves, cleaned some corrosion off the Mag cap and rotor primed the oil pump and it fired right up. According to the previous owner the mag was going to need some work----I'm not sure but the boots on the spark plugs may have been too tight to slide on far enough. A dab of dielectric grease and some persuasion got them where the needed to be.

Didn't seem to be very smoky. After warming it up compression showed 90, 90, 90, 99psi.

There was a slight knock that appears to be in the bottom end. It's not terrible but it should be investigated. I'll probe with a screwdriver (hillbilly stethoscope) later.

Thanks for the input Jimmydog, makes sense that the rings might loosen up with a few thermal cycles.

 

[560Dennis]

Pull that oil pump and clean it good ,clean oil pan before you start it. You don’t want to pump the rusty sludge all though the motor . Change the filter .

 

[Jim.ME]

Pull that oil pump and clean it good ,clean oil pan before you start it. You don’t want to pump the rusty sludge all though the motor . Change the filter .

You are too late. He posted he had in running in the post (#15) right before your #16 post.

 

[atlarge54]

Pull that oil pump and clean it good ,clean oil pan before you start it. You don’t want to pump the rusty sludge all though the motor . Change the filter .

Yes your method would be correct, I got a little hasty.