Help! Ford 20-16 Manure Spreader disaster

[DCStickney]

I'd just finished rebuilding a Ford 20-16 manure spreader when this happened:


My local shop wants $1600 to braze it back together. I have four options at this point.
Find another one - Does anyone know where I can find Ford/New Holland part number 106272? or a similar spreader for parts? It fits all of the 20 series spreaders.
Find something I can adapt - Does anyone know of any other spreaders that used a 12 inch ratchet wheel on a 1.25 inch shaft?
Fabricate a new one - If I can find a local shop that can cut the ratchet teeth
Fix this one - I'm going to try this anyway, just for the experience and because I have nothing to lose at this point.

As for fixing this one, weld or braze? I have never welded cast iron but I have never brazed anything. My plan is to fixture it and tack it at the rim to make sure it stays round and aligned before I tackle the hub.

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

I'd just finished rebuilding a Ford 20-16 manure spreader when this happened:

View attachment 169323
My local shop wants $1600 to braze it back together. I have four options at this point.
Find another one - Does anyone know where I can find Ford/New Holland part number 106272? or a similar spreader for parts? It fits all of the 20 series spreaders.
Find something I can adapt - Does anyone know of any other spreaders that used a 12 inch ratchet wheel on a 1.25 inch shaft?
Fabricate a new one - If I can find a local shop that can cut the ratchet teeth
Fix this one - I'm going to try this anyway, just for the experience and because I have nothing to lose at this point.

As for fixing this one, weld or braze? I have never welded cast iron but I have never brazed anything. My plan is to fixture it and tack it at the rim to make sure it stays round and aligned before I tackle the hub.

Most likely, a slip clutch or shear pin didn't do it's job here.

Did you oil your floor before loading?

If you weld or braze it, make sure the bore is back to it's original ID tolerance. Can't have slop there. Same with both keyways (sprocket & shaft) & then you'll want to make sure the shaft isn't sprung, bent, etc.

I wouldn't put much stock in a weld or braze in that situation. Those sprockets are kind of light duty for the job they serve & they are under a LOT of strain. I've blown apart a few, both pre & post braze.

Mike

 

[DCStickney]

Most likely, a slip clutch or shear pin didn't do it's job here.

Did you oil your floor before loading?

If you weld or braze it, make sure the bore is back to it's original ID tolerance. Can't have slop there. Same with both keyways (sprocket & shaft) & then you'll want to make sure the shaft isn't sprung, bent, etc.

I wouldn't put much stock in a weld or braze in that situation. Those sprockets are kind of light duty for the job they serve & they are under a LOT of strain. I've blown apart a few, both pre & post braze.

Mike

The conveyor chain parted and hooked on the frame and the clutch definitely did not do its job.

 

[JIM MN]

Try for a used one, if not, give it a try, weld. Fixture pieces on flat surface. Clap down the best you can? Get a piece of correct shaft. V out the breaks to get your weld deep to hold. Preheat three out side breaks, do one at a time to cherry red, nickel rod, weld and peen doing the three outside breaks first, tack good one side, and flip. Heat breaks again and weld up final, weld and peen, weld and peen! Finish the inside breaks, V-out- heat-weld-peen. Flip, and do the same. Get stub shaft out. Clean up teeth. Let all cool naturally. You should be-able to get some good welds? Be sure to figure out what caused your problem?

 

[Loosehandle]

I've never had any luck welding anything cast round with spokes even with preheat and nickel.

 

[Alvin 41]

I'd just finished rebuilding a Ford 20-16 manure spreader when this happened:

View attachment 169323
My local shop wants $1600 to braze it back together. I have four options at this point.
Find another one - Does anyone know where I can find Ford/New Holland part number 106272? or a similar spreader for parts? It fits all of the 20 series spreaders.
Find something I can adapt - Does anyone know of any other spreaders that used a 12 inch ratchet wheel on a 1.25 inch shaft?
Fabricate a new one - If I can find a local shop that can cut the ratchet teeth
Fix this one - I'm going to try this anyway, just for the experience and because I have nothing to lose at this point.

As for fixing this one, weld or braze? I have never welded cast iron but I have never brazed anything. My plan is to fixture it and tack it at the rim to make sure it stays round and aligned before I tackle the hub.

A lot of spreaders used that ratchet drive apron system and i never broke the ratchet sprocket on New Idea spreaders, just the drive pawls.

 

[ET]

The key to welding or braziing cast iron is to preheat it evenly then let it cool slowly by wrapping it in insulation.

 

[Richard G.]

I'd just finished rebuilding a Ford 20-16 manure spreader when this happened:

View attachment 169323
My local shop wants $1600 to braze it back together. I have four options at this point.
Find another one - Does anyone know where I can find Ford/New Holland part number 106272? or a similar spreader for parts? It fits all of the 20 series spreaders.
Find something I can adapt - Does anyone know of any other spreaders that used a 12 inch ratchet wheel on a 1.25 inch shaft?
Fabricate a new one - If I can find a local shop that can cut the ratchet teeth
Fix this one - I'm going to try this anyway, just for the experience and because I have nothing to lose at this point.

As for fixing this one, weld or braze? I have never welded cast iron but I have never brazed anything. My plan is to fixture it and tack it at the rim to make sure it stays round and aligned before I tackle the hub.

Broke one about 55 years,ago like that.
Nickle welded it and it was working a couple of years later when I sold it.
I did not think it would hold when welding it.

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

A lot of spreaders used that ratchet drive apron system and i never broke the ratchet sprocket on New Idea spreaders, just the drive pawls.

The one on my NI 213 is certainly heavier than the one on my IH 130.

Wish it fit the 130, but there's an extra 23 teeth & the NI has a larger shaft. Also keyed vs splined.

Mike

 

[Tupperville]

I'd just finished rebuilding a Ford 20-16 manure spreader when this happened:

View attachment 169323
My local shop wants $1600 to braze it back together. I have four options at this point.
Find another one - Does anyone know where I can find Ford/New Holland part number 106272? or a similar spreader for parts? It fits all of the 20 series spreaders.
Find something I can adapt - Does anyone know of any other spreaders that used a 12 inch ratchet wheel on a 1.25 inch shaft?
Fabricate a new one - If I can find a local shop that can cut the ratchet teeth
Fix this one - I'm going to try this anyway, just for the experience and because I have nothing to lose at this point.

As for fixing this one, weld or braze? I have never welded cast iron but I have never brazed anything. My plan is to fixture it and tack it at the rim to make sure it stays round and aligned before I tackle the hub.

Post a photo of the implement so we know what to look for.

I know a guy with implements and tractors scattered over his farm from years of attending auction sales.

He's got so much stuff he doen't know what he has.

I got a personal tour in his pick up truck, it was, "that farms mine"and "that farms mine"..................nothing organized, I thought I saw a donkey in with the cattle, showed me the barn with baled hay he sells at $7 a bale............told me stopped counting john deere tractors on the property at 26,,,,,,,,,a real character........

 

[casecollectorsc]

Got a old NH spreader here...have to see if that gear is the same.

 

[NY 986]

The part number is 106272. Some dealers deal with NOS parts warehouses which buy up dealer inventory. You might luck and find one that way. Another possibility would be the classified section of a magazine for Ford collectors and enthusiasts.

 

[showcrop]

The key to welding or braziing cast iron is to preheat it evenly then let it cool slowly by wrapping it in insulation.

I have seen slow cooling in sand a number of times but never in insulation.

 

[Tupperville]

This appeared in the local classifieds this morning.

That cast gear looks very much similar to yours.

These people however, wont take a part off, in most cases, they have been left an estate, they drag the stuff out of the barn and ask a ridiculous price.

 

[DanielW]

I've made up a few ratchet gears like that, and think that I've come up with (in my opinion) a pretty good method for making them fairly cheaply. One was for an IH 175 manure spreader that had blown apart exactly like yours. I would have brazed it myself if I'd had all the pieces, but one of them went AWOL. The others I've made have all been for circular sawmill carriages, where the setworks use the same type of ratchet & pawl setup. They get worn over time and the teeth don't grab anymore. I made one of them just a couple of weeks ago, and have the sketch here in front of me.

They key to making parts cheaply is to find ways of making them that avoid setup and machining time. If you can figure out a way to make them that only involves cutting pieces on a plasma/laser table and welding together yourself you'll be able to make anything fairly inexpensively.

What I do: I draw up the wheel profile in CAD with holes for plug welding and a centre hole just a smidge larger than the O.D. of a standard weld-in hub. Have a few of these gears torched out of 1/2" or 3/8" plate (I spec AR plate as we have that on the laser table all the time at work, but for an old spreader that only sees a few hours a year I'm sure regular mild steel will be fine). Once they're cut, stagger the discs so the teeth are still in-line but the plug-welding holes are offset, then plug weld them together to effectively make a gear the right thickness. In this case I used four 1/2" thick pieces to end up with a 2" thick gear. Unfortunately you can't just have it torched out of 2" thick plate, because the thicker you go on a plasma/laser table, the less precise the cuts are and the teeth and gullets would be too rounded.

I can tell you how much this one cost me: $90 for the steel discs cut on the plasma table. $11 for the weld-in hub ordered from 'Forces Inc. (plus $14 shipping). But unfortunately it would cost you more to have done. Because I can draw it up in CAD myself I save that charge. And because I buy this through our industrial/steel store at work I can send the template down and say, "Hey, burn these for me the next time you have 1/2" AR450 on the table", which saves quite a bit of cost as I'm not charged for all of the handling and setup for that plate thickness on the table (which is where most of the shop time is spent when cutting things on a table). And I do get a small discount on material (though not on labour).

Even so, I suspect you could have this done for your spreader $350 or less if you found the right shop and weld the discs together yourself. Any fab shop worth their salt these days has a plasma or laser table. The only consideration you might have to make is how precise and fine their table is capable of cutting the teeth. They may have to do a trial cut and show you to see if the teeth turn out sharp/meaty enough. If not, you may have to change the template so there are fewer teeth, which allows you to make the teeth more meaty so they turn out better on the plasma/laser table. I'm lucky as our laser table at work (and even our plasma table) will cut up to 3/4" plate with superb resolution. But I know a lot of tables aren't nearly as good. If I tried to do that on the old plasma table at my previous job, the teeth would have come out looking like bumpy, rounded lumps.

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

I've made up a few ratchet gears like that, and think that I've come up with (in my opinion) a pretty good method for making them fairly cheaply. One was for an IH 175 manure spreader that had blown apart exactly like yours. I would have brazed it myself if I'd had all the pieces, but one of them went AWOL. The others I've made have all been for circular sawmill carriages, where the setworks use the same type of ratchet & pawl setup. They get worn over time and the teeth don't grab anymore. I made one of them just a couple of weeks ago, and have the sketch here in front of me.

They key to making parts cheaply is to find ways of making them that avoid setup and machining time. If you can figure out a way to make them that only involves cutting pieces on a plasma/laser table and welding together yourself you'll be able to make anything fairly inexpensively.

What I do: I draw up the wheel profile in CAD with holes for plug welding and a centre hole just a smidge larger than the O.D. of a standard weld-in hub. Have a few of these gears torched out of 1/2" or 3/8" plate (I spec AR plate as we have that on the laser table all the time at work, but for an old spreader that only sees a few hours a year I'm sure regular mild steel will be fine). Once they're cut, stagger the discs so the teeth are still in-line but the plug-welding holes are offset, then plug weld them together to effectively make a gear the right thickness. In this case I used four 1/2" thick pieces to end up with a 2" thick gear. Unfortunately you can't just have it torched out of 2" thick plate, because the thicker you go on a plasma/laser table, the less precise the cuts are and the teeth and gullets would be too rounded.

I can tell you how much this one cost me: $90 for the steel discs cut on the plasma table. $11 for the weld-in hub ordered from 'Forces Inc. (plus $14 shipping). But unfortunately it would cost you more to have done. Because I can draw it up in CAD myself I save that charge. And because I buy this through our industrial/steel store at work I can send the template down and say, "Hey, burn these for me the next time you have 1/2" AR450 on the table", which saves quite a bit of cost as I'm not charged for all of the handling and setup for that plate thickness on the table (which is where most of the shop time is spent when cutting things on a table). And I do get a small discount on material (though not on labour).

Even so, I suspect you could have this done for your spreader $350 or less if you found the right shop and weld the discs together yourself. Any fab shop worth their salt these days has a plasma or laser table. The only consideration you might have to make is how precise and fine their table is capable of cutting the teeth. They may have to do a trial cut and show you to see if the teeth turn out sharp/meaty enough. If not, you may have to change the template so there are fewer teeth, which allows you to make the teeth more meaty so they turn out better on the plasma/laser table. I'm lucky as our laser table at work (and even our plasma table) will cut up to 3/4" plate with superb resolution. But I know a lot of tables aren't nearly as good. If I tried to do that on the old plasma table at my previous job, the teeth would have come out looking like bumpy, rounded lumps.

View attachment 169378

If you change the diameter & number of teeth, you will have to readjust or reconfigure the ratchet mechanism for that new sprocket. Which makes the original apron settings as per the manual, incorrect.

Mike

 

[NY 986]

I'm thinking that unless a person has all the equipment, tools, and materials making a gear from scratch will easily cost a few hundred dollars. For that I would explore the NOS and magazine routes first.

 

[DanielW]

If you change the diameter & number of teeth, you will have to readjust or reconfigure the ratchet mechanism for that new sprocket. Which makes the original apron settings as per the manual, incorrect.

Mike

You definitely wouldn't want to change the diameter, just the number of teeth if requried. Changing the number of teeth to have, say, fewer (but chunkier) teeth will make a small difference on rotation per stroke of the pawl, but on an old spreader it wouldn't be enough to make any meaningful difference. The pawl can stay the same if the diameter stays the same, as long as the angle of the teeth is still such that the pawl is still getting some positive engagement on the teeth. Every time that pawl comes back to start an new stroke it might, for instance, come back four and a half tooth spaces on the newer, chunkier teeth instead of, say, six and a quarter quarter of the original finer tooth spaces (I'm making up numbers here just for concept). So you might loose a smidge of stroke before it engages. But on an old spreader that won't make a difference. Just bump up or down a setting if really required (but I doubt you'd notice a difference from the seat). And that's only if you have to go to chunkier teeth if the plasma/laser table doesn't have very good resolution. These days laser and plasma tables at most fab shops are so good that on 1/2" or thinner plate I'm sure you could torch it with the original tooth count and they'd come out fine.

If you want to get really fancy, something I do for these gears on the setworks of sawmill carriages where you want really precise control to make sure you're cutting accurately is to change from a single pawl to two or three narrower pawls off the same pivot - each pawl a fraction of a tooth pitch longer/shorter than each other. That way if one pawl happens to stop in a position where it will slip a bit before coming in contact with a tooth, one of the other pawls will be much closer to being perfectly at a tooth location. Handy for the lower-end old circular sawmills like the old Plant and Belsaws where the crude and imprecise single pawls and chunky teeth often let the log/cant drift a little in the cut and your boards ended up being 1/8" varied in thickness. But not worth getting that fancy for an old muck spreader.

 

[DanielW]

I'm thinking that unless a person has all the equipment, tools, and materials making a gear from scratch will easily cost a few hundred dollars. For that I would explore the NOS and magazine routes first.

That could be. But you'd be surprised at how many fabrications shops now have decent plasma or laser tables, and how fast and (comparatively) inexpensively they can kick out parts. Including the place where I work, there are three fab shops with plasma or laser tables within a couple miles of each other here. And because you can buy weld-in hubs that are already bored & keyed, the only thing you need at home is a welder.

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

You definitely wouldn't want to change the diameter, just the number of teeth if requried. Changing the number of teeth to have, say, fewer (but chunkier) teeth will make a small difference on rotation per stroke of the pawl, but on an old spreader it wouldn't be enough to make any meaningful difference. The pawl can stay the same if the diameter stays the same, as long as the angle of the teeth is still such that the pawl is still getting some positive engagement on the teeth. Every time that pawl comes back to start an new stroke it might, for instance, come back four and a half tooth spaces on the newer, chunkier teeth instead of, say, six and a quarter quarter of the original finer tooth spaces (I'm making up numbers here just for concept). So you might loose a smidge of stroke before it engages. But on an old spreader that won't make a difference. Just bump up or down a setting if really required (but I doubt you'd notice a difference from the seat). And that's only if you have to go to chunkier teeth if the plasma/laser table doesn't have very good resolution. These days laser and plasma tables at most fab shops are so good that on 1/2" or thinner plate I'm sure you could torch it with the original tooth count and they'd come out fine.

If you want to get really fancy, something I do for these gears on the setworks of sawmill carriages where you want really precise control to make sure you're cutting accurately is to change from a single pawl to two or three narrower pawls off the same pivot - each pawl a fraction of a tooth pitch longer/shorter than each other. That way if one pawl happens to stop in a position where it will slip a bit before coming in contact with a tooth, one of the other pawls will be much closer to being perfectly at a tooth location. Handy for the lower-end old circular sawmills like the old Plant and Belsaws where the crude and imprecise single pawls and chunky teeth often let the log/cant drift a little in the cut and your boards ended up being 1/8" varied in thickness. But not worth getting that fancy for an old muck spreader.
View attachment 169389

As long as there's still a reasonable amount of adjustment for the feed lever, I'd guess it should be ok if you don't get too excited with the tooth size.

An afterthought....

I really can't think of a time where I used the first couple notches on the selector. So, slow isn't necessary in my book. Just mind the slip clutch &/or shear pins.

Mike