DEF Question (Legal)

[mml373]

What are the current rules regarding DEF use in tractors? I have a 120hp utility tractor (New Holland Workmaster 120) and was wondering if the DEF requirement has gone away for this class of tractor and if there is a (legal) way to remove the DEF system and still have a properly running tractor. Concern being that DEF will no longer be available for sale one day.

What a costly hoax these climate nuts have been pushing on us... I suspect (if it is legal) deleting the DEF and reprogramming the computer will cost more than I'd end up paying for DEF in my lifetime. Again, biggest concern is the stuff is going to become unavailable.

DEF...another reason the Massey 135 is the star of my operation.

 

[used red MN]

Again, biggest concern is the stuff is going to become unavailable

DEF, was introduced in 2010. Very likely 100,000s of machines that require DEF have been manufactured since then. I doubt you have to worry about it becoming unavailable in your lifetime, if it does you’ll have a pretty big band wagon of folks to jump onto with lawyers wanting to represent them in a class action lawsuit. BTW, DEF is about 1/3 liquid urea (fertilizer) and the other 2/3s is ionized water.

 

[john in la]

The way I understand it.
You can not delete the def system but the Feds have stopped going after those that do with criminal charges. States are still allowed to bring charges.
Where the law changed is you are now allowed to remove sensors that would put the diesel motor into limp mode. So if the system fails you can finish the job and repair the system at a later date rather than being shut down at the time of the failure.

 

[Powered By IH]

What are the current rules regarding DEF use in tractors? I have a 120hp utility tractor (New Holland Workmaster 120) and was wondering if the DEF requirement has gone away for this class of tractor and if there is a (legal) way to remove the DEF system and still have a properly running tractor. Concern being that DEF will no longer be available for sale one day.

What a costly hoax these climate nuts have been pushing on us... I suspect (if it is legal) deleting the DEF and reprogramming the computer will cost more than I'd end up paying for DEF in my lifetime. Again, biggest concern is the stuff is going to become unavailable.

DEF...another reason the Massey 135 is the star of my operation.

It currently still is illegal to delete these systems.

There has been a whole lot of misinformation about what the rules actually are. As far as I know, the only thing that changed in the emissions world is now the tractors have a "warning period", where it will let you know there's something wrong with the tractor, but it won't de-rate for a certain number of hours. Once the tractor hits that hour mark though, it will de-rate power.

Previously, if the tractor detected a major problem in the emissions system, it would immediately de-rate and you had to fix it then. Now, you have a little grace period so you can finish your work with that tractor and safely get it somewhere it can be serviced.

Yes, your concern is valid. I've heard the people that go through the work of deleting a tractor usually say there wasn't much benefit gained, all said and done. Usually it's cheaper to just leave that stuff on there.

Another note, if it's deleted, a dealership can/may refuse to work on your tractor. There's a whole ton of legal stuff about working on deleted equipment. Some dealerships kinda look the other way, some are pretty strict. So if your tractor breaks down, you can't guarantee service.

Final note- If you do want to trade in your tractor someday, the same thing applies. Dealerships have to be pretty strict on trade-ins because they can't sell illegal equipment, so just consider that too.

 

[ss55]

What are the current rules regarding DEF use in tractors? I have a 120hp utility tractor (New Holland Workmaster 120) and was wondering if the DEF requirement has gone away for this class of tractor and if there is a (legal) way to remove the DEF system and still have a properly running tractor. Concern being that DEF will no longer be available for sale one day.

What a costly hoax these climate nuts have been pushing on us... I suspect (if it is legal) deleting the DEF and reprogramming the computer will cost more than I'd end up paying for DEF in my lifetime. Again, biggest concern is the stuff is going to become unavailable.

DEF...another reason the Massey 135 is the star of my operation.

Legally, probably not at this time, maybe never. Doable, yes so long as you plan to only be able to resell it privately or to a scrapyard. Just like vehicles, any legitimate dealer will not touch buying it after it has been modified.

I do not know about getting repairs made. The software will have been modified to the point where scanners will have too many red flags to diagnose accurately. The book rate for repairs and service manual instructions may no longer apply anymore. The system will need to be debugged before a tech can actually work on it. The diagnosis and debugging of your modifications will be done on your dime, time and material at standard shop rates. If the ( fly-by-night, no warranty, no support ? ) software company that you buy the modifications from goes out of business you will be entirely on your own.

Myself, I would hold off on any machine of value.

 

[ss55]

The way I understand it.
You can not delete the def system but the Feds have stopped going after those that do with criminal charges. States are still allowed to bring charges.
Where the law changed is you are now allowed to remove sensors that would put the diesel motor into limp mode. So if the system fails you can finish the job and repair the system at a later date rather than being shut down at the time of the failure.

I think in the past the Feds had only been going after the manufactures and shops selling the emission deletion modifications rather than going after the customers that bought the modifications. The market place will likely be cruel enough to those buyers.

 

[jhwis]

Sell it like I did. You will be much better off. I'll refrain from any further comments.

 

[mml373]

Thanks for all these replies, folks. To be clear, I never had any intent to delete the emissions equipment unless DEF became unavailable for some reason...sounds like that is unlikely for upcoming decades I'll be around, anyway. Very happy with the tractor but despise all the ways the rich folks keep finding to stay in folks' pockets. Thanks again.

 

[Bob Bancroft]

Thanks for all these replies, folks. To be clear, I never had any intent to delete the emissions equipment unless DEF became unavailable for some reason...sounds like that is unlikely for upcoming decades I'll be around, anyway. Very happy with the tractor but despise all the ways the rich folks keep finding to stay in folks' pockets. Thanks again.

Thankfully, I have no personal experience with this. But my friends have. Again, lack of DEF would not be a concern. Keeping your machine running is the concern. My friends have gone the delete route when forced to when nothing else would keep their machine running.
The closest I have come is with a small enough engine there is no DEF, but there is a two part catalyst/filter muffler. Doing all the proper procedures didn't last enough hours to say so.

 

[JoeM(GA)]

Trucks and tractors, equipment and such, if you remove it, do it in a way that it can be re-installed if the tide changes. And as mentioned above, dealers are not gonna want to take in a trade that has been modified. Truck dealers around here in Atlanta won’t let you even leave a modified vehicle for service, or will call you to come pick it up as soon as the computer realizes it’s been tampered with. It’s not their fault, fines and licenses are at stake for them.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

I mean plenty of these will be auctioned off eventually as the first owners that deleted them will be moving on and I highly doubt the auction yard is going to verify the emissions. Playing stupid is their friend and that’s not unreasonable I think knowingly selling is where they start going after them. Not to mention the next owner likely will want it that way anyway.

If you haven’t noticed the used lineup at the dealership is practically non existent they have all been going to the auction for the last 5 to 10 years or so nothings on the lot because in some cases rebuildable is more valuable to some people than new.

Now is a good time to go searching if you have the cash as prices are tamed down a bit on everything from the old timers to hay tractors to combines go get exactly what you want.

 

[m16ty]

I think in the past the Feds had only been going after the manufactures and shops selling the emission deletion modifications rather than going after the customers that bought the modifications. The market place will likely be cruel enough to those buyers.

No laws have changed that I’m aware of. What I think is happening currently is the laws aren’t being enforced against companies or individuals who delete. This could all change with the political climate. This is also why places like dealers avoid it, as soon as the political climate changes they could be charged.
I still think there will be a market (at least in the near future) for deleted tractors. While it is true you won’t be able to trade it in to a dealer, private sales will often garner more money for a deleted tractor.

 

[moresmoke]

Most all new diesel equipment is still leaving the factory with DEF. As of yet there haven’t been any major changes to the emissions requirements, aside from slowing the adoption of future phases. Its not something I see going away anytime soon.

 

[RCP]

When I traded my deleted truck the RAM dealer in Ohio knew it was deleted and didn't bat an eye, they gave me market value based on a truck that had not been deleted. The truck was on their used car lot for a couple of weeks then it disappeared, maybe they sold it or it went to the auction. Your experience may be different based on your dealer and the state where you live.

 

[Bob Bancroft]

When I traded my deleted truck the RAM dealer in Ohio knew it was deleted and didn't bat an eye, they gave me market value based on a truck that had not been deleted. The truck was on their used car lot for a couple of weeks then it disappeared, maybe they sold it or it went to the auction. Your experience may be different based on your dealer and the state where you live.

It would be interesting to know, if it say, left the country?!

 

[ss55]

I mean plenty of these will be auctioned off eventually as the first owners that deleted them will be moving on and I highly doubt the auction yard is going to verify the emissions. Playing stupid is their friend and that’s not unreasonable I think knowingly selling is where they start going after them. Not to mention the next owner likely will want it that way anyway.

If you haven’t noticed the used lineup at the dealership is practically non existent they have all been going to the auction for the last 5 to 10 years or so nothings on the lot because in some cases rebuildable is more valuable to some people than new.

Now is a good time to go searching if you have the cash as prices are tamed down a bit on everything from the old timers to hay tractors to combines go get exactly what you want.

Some equipment dealers might be intentionally cutting back the size of inventor they carry.

Most used car dealers are cutting back their inventories as: sales to consumers are falling; the wholesale auction prices and retail sale prices of used vehicles are now dropping; and interest rates are rising for both customers and dealers. Dealers do not want to loose money holding vehicles in inventory that now depreciate too much before they can be sold.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

Some equipment dealers might be intentionally cutting back the size of inventor they carry.

Most used car dealers are cutting back their inventories as: sales to consumers are falling; the wholesale auction prices and retail sale prices of used vehicles are now dropping; and interest rates are rising for both customers and dealers. Dealers do not want to loose money holding vehicles in inventory that now depreciate too much before they can be sold.

While there is some of that going on and prices have softened the last couple years the farm side has been a little auction heavy for awhile now regardless the world economy the dealer seems like the worst place to take a used piece of equipment for any reason and to sell it might be the worst reason. They CLOBBER you. They don’t want to deal with it either