Having to polarize generator at every cranking!

[demaxx1]

Hi guys I have a 49 8N I purchased about a month ago. The previous owner told me that the charging system was not working and he was having to take the battery cable off every night. Upon inspection after I got it home. I noticed some very creative wiring. I took the generator off (6volt positive ground)Inspected it, and someone had put the wrong brushes in it. They would not even move in the brush holder.

I decided that the generator should be rebuilt, and took it to my local alt, gen, starter repair shop. While it was there I decided to get rid of the creative wiring. NAPA auto parts sells a replacement harness. While I was running wires I put new copper core plug wires on it. I went ahead and installed a new voltage regulator.

Once I got the generator back I installed it, and made sure the battery had a good charge. I hooked the battery up polarized the generator by using a screw driver and crossing the bat and the arm terminals at the regulator. I cranked the tractor and got no charge! I checked it at battery and all I was showing was the 6.2 volts that were in the battery.

Today I decided it was going to be the day to fix this issue. I took the generator to a different shop just to have it tested. They said the generator was working very well. So the generator was not the problem! I pulled my service manual, and checked all the wiring. Every thing was in the correct place. The repair place had told me that it could be that it is not getting a good ground, so before installing the generator I pulled out the roloc disk and removed all the paint and rust from the connecting surfaces. Then removed the regulator and did the same thing. Everything hooked back up polarized the regulator and cranked it and got noting.

I took the VR off and returned it for another. Put it on, and went through the procedure. When I cranked it the amp meter moved up to about 2 amps at a idle when I throttle up to 1000rpms I get around 12 amps. At the battery I am getting 6.8-7 volts depending on the RPMs.

So it looks like all is good. That is until I turn the tractor off. I went back about 30 minutes later, and it showed no charge! I polarized the generator again, and it started charging again. Turned it off, come back a hour later, again no charge until I polarized the generator.

I am sorry for the very long post, but I figure some of the tractor gurus here may have run across this before. Am I losing ground after I cut the tractor off? I googled the problem with no luck.

 

[R Geiger]

The only thing that you are doing when you polarize the generator is that it magnetizes the generator a bit so that the it is in agreement with with the 6 volt positive ground.. What you may have is a bad voltage regulator and the cutout relay is not kicking it. I got tired of bad regulators and switched both of my 8ns to 12 volts. No more problems.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

" I took the generator to a different shop just to have it tested. They said the generator was working very well. "

My local shop always asks that the v/r be tested along with the generator. You should have taken them both in.

I can't get Photobucket to load and that's were my testing flowchart is. I'll see if I can find it later.
75 Tips

 

[demaxx1]

One thing I didn't mention the generator is a 2 brush, 3 wire. I thought about getting another bad VR. I am a stickler for keeping things as original as possible. I know a single wire alternator may be more practical, but it is a personal choice!

 

[demaxx1]

Thanks Bruce, They told me that after I got there, that they could test both together. But in my inpatients I just took the generator off. The VR is much more a pain to get off. Sad but true!

 

[JMOR]

Those regulators were initially bolted to a plate that was on rubber isolators and even if it isn't that way now, it still may be on an adapter plate, so a separate regulator ground wire may fix the problem. Should be a wire in the harness for that connecting ground post on generator to base of VR.

 

[demaxx1]

"Should be a wire in the harness for that connecting ground post on generator to base of VR."
Yes there is and it is connected. I just took the time to clean the paint and rust from where the screw goes through, so that I am sure it is getting ground. I will wait for a few and see if it is still charging.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Here it is. Check out both the generator and the v/r. Let us know what you find.

75 Tips

 

[Hobo,NC]

(quoted from post at 05:22:24 05/17/17) " I took the generator to a different shop just to have it tested. They said the generator was working very well. "

My local shop always asks that the v/r be tested along with the generator. You should have taken them both in.

I can't get Photobucket to load and that's were my testing flowchart is. I'll see if I can find it later.
75 Tips

If you want to solve your Photobucket problem pay them there extortion fee of (guess) 19.95 a year it will then work good.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

I must say they sure set the hook very well. It worked great for a few years for free. Then an ad or two....or three. I guess I'll just have to fork over the $$$.

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley RIP]

I concur there is a wiring issue, and polarizing is not the fix or issue, and a 12 volt convulsion is not the answer either as so many with similar problems think and do. It has been reported recently that certain VR's sold today are junk out of the box. Do you have the original AUTO-LITE VR or the newer style? Even some repair shops do not know the proper way to tweak these old generators so be careful. These 6-volt systems work just fine when al l is right in the world...I'm not against 12 volts if it is done right and for all the right reasons.

8N NEW STYLE VOLTAGE REGULATOR:

8N ORIGINAL AUTO-LITE VOLTAGE REGULATOR:

 

[oldtanker]

Take the VR in, get it tested. If bad go get 5 or 6 more, saves running to town every time on is bad out the box...... :lol: ! As others have said make sure the regulator is grounded.

Then convert it to 12V and forget about it...... :twisted: :twisted:

Rick

 

[R Geiger]

The last VR I had before converting to 12 volts, would only work if I tapped on it, then the cutout would kick in and it would charge.

 

[R Geiger]

(quoted from post at 06:21:33 05/17/17) I must say they sure set the hook very well. It worked great for a few years for free. Then an ad or two....or three. I guess I'll just have to fork over the $$$.

So far, I don't have any problem with photobucket working, I only got around 800 photos on it tho.

 

[demaxx1]

I come across an interesting read last night on losing the Residual magnetism on the generator. To make it short, It was from auto truck and tractor book it said that after polarizing, run the generator for a hour so that it builds up some permanent Residual magnetism. I am fixing to find out if this works, I have 3 loads of gravel coming today for the driveway.

I will let you all know if this works.

 

[Bruce(VA)]

(quoted from post at 12:32:50 05/18/17) I come across an interesting read last night on losing the Residual magnetism on the generator. To make it short, It was from auto truck and tractor book it said that after polarizing, run the generator for a hour so that it builds up some permanent Residual magnetism. I am fixing to find out if this works, I have 3 loads of gravel coming today for the driveway.

I will let you all know if this works.

Did you run the tests on the flow chart?

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley RIP]

If you have the original AUTO-LITE VR, it may time to get the newer style -they don't last forever. No shame in having to replace that part. A 12-volt/alternator change only masks the root cause. An EI conversion will eliminate points but these low compression N's don't need EI either.

Tim

 

[oldtanker]

(quoted from post at 05:24:14 05/18/17) If you have the original AUTO-LITE VR, it may time to get the newer style -they don't last forever. No shame in having to replace that part. A 12-volt/alternator change only masks the root cause. An EI conversion will eliminate points but these low compression N's don't need EI either.

Tim

Mask what root cause? The root cause is a charging system issue. Getting rid of the 6V generator, battery and VR isn't masking a darned thing. It's repairing it by upgrading the system to todays standard 12V replacing other problematic parts with lower maintenance more reliable ones.

Yea if the tractor has low compression and you are going to 12V you are masking a problem. Yea if the starter is dragging same thing. But if the generator, VR or battery is the problem then replacing it with an alternator and 12 volt battery is that is a legitimate repair! Same thing with an Electronic Ignition upgrade. If the points are in need of replacement going over to EI is a repair and fixing the problem that eliminates the points. And there is absolutely no sense in spending money by repairing the charging system prior to upgrading to 12V just as there is no sense in replacing the points with new ones when you are going over to EI either.

Heck, it's to the point that a 6V battery is more expensive than a 12 volt. Cheaper to maintain an alternator too. Then add in it's getting harder and harder to find a battery charger that has a setting for 6V. Other than a show tractor why on earth would you keep one 6V? On all of my tractors that I converted to 12V it was because the 6 volt system was broken and the conversion was the repair. 2 of them have been converted to EI too. That's because with knee problems working on the front mount is a problem and this way I don't have to. Plus the last set of Standard points I bought were defective too. So now I don't have to mess with that problem either.

I can think of 2 reasons to keep them original: 1, you want to: 2 it's a show tractor. I can think or several good reasons to convert too: 1, expense of a 6V battery: 2, less maintenance 3, better reliability: 4, better extreme cold weather starting: 5, less expensive parts should a problem occur: 6, no hassle shopping for a battery charger: 7, compatibility with newer equipment. If a battery goes bad on my backhoe/newer tractors/car I can jump it with one of my formally 6V tractors.

Rick

 

[demaxx1]

Well there must have been some truth to the information I read. I polarized the tractor and went to work on the driveway. I had several ruts that I needed to break up and fill in. It took me about a hour, I got off the tractor and went and paid for the gravel. When I got back on the tractor to start smoothing out the drive. It cranked and charged without having to be polarized again. The generator started charging better as I worked.

I think I may be good now. I think I was not letting the tractor run enough after it was polarized to build any residual magnetism. I don't know I am just happy that it seems to be working correctly now.

 

[R Geiger]

(quoted from post at 10:42:57 05/18/17) Well there must have been some truth to the information I read. I polarized the tractor and went to work on the driveway. I had several ruts that I needed to break up and fill in. It took me about a hour, I got off the tractor and went and paid for the gravel. When I got back on the tractor to start smoothing out the drive. It cranked and charged without having to be polarized again. The generator started charging better as I worked.

I think I may be good now. I think I was not letting the tractor run enough after it was polarized to build any residual magnetism. I don't know I am just happy that it seems to be working correctly now.

I am glad that it working but the residual magnetism in the generator would be there with one spark during the polarizing process.

Watch the amp meter every time you start it and make sure it is charging, if not try tapping the VR with a wrench and watch the meter. My las t 8n with generator would charge just fine at times and others time only if I tapped on VR. Battery went bad so I figured it was time to to 12 volts. Glad I did. I need it to work every time and not have to fool with it every time I wanted to usse it.
Enjoy Your N, they are a great little tractor.

 

[oldtanker]

(quoted from post at 09:42:57 05/18/17) Well there must have been some truth to the information I read. I polarized the tractor and went to work on the driveway. I had several ruts that I needed to break up and fill in. It took me about a hour, I got off the tractor and went and paid for the gravel. When I got back on the tractor to start smoothing out the drive. It cranked and charged without having to be polarized again. The generator started charging better as I worked.

I think I may be good now. I think I was not letting the tractor run enough after it was polarized to build any residual magnetism. I don't know I am just happy that it seems to be working correctly now.

Cool, glad it's working for you.

Rick

 

[demaxx1]

Bruce not yet, I thought I would try running it like it said in the car truck and tractor information I found first. It worked for today. If tomorrow morning I have to polarize it again I will run the test. Thanks!

 

[demaxx1]

"Enjoy Your N, they are a great little tractor. "

I will! It did a great job on the driveway today with the box scrape. I have been watching the amp gauge closely, it has been charging today ever since the first time that I polarized it. I had been on and off of it all day and the battery has kept a charge. I am curious to see what it does in the morning. Thanks!

 

[Hobo,NC]

(quoted from post at 19:35:18 05/18/17)

(quoted from post at 05:24:14 05/18/17) If you have the original AUTO-LITE VR, it may time to get the newer style -they don't last forever. No shame in having to replace that part. A 12-volt/alternator change only masks the root cause. An EI conversion will eliminate points but these low compression N's don't need EI either.

Tim

Mask what root cause? The root cause is a charging system issue. Getting rid of the 6V generator, battery and VR isn't masking a darned thing. It's repairing it by upgrading the system to todays standard 12V replacing other problematic parts with lower maintenance more reliable ones.

Yea if the tractor has low compression and you are going to 12V you are masking a problem. Yea if the starter is dragging same thing. But if the generator, VR or battery is the problem then replacing it with an alternator and 12 volt battery is that is a legitimate repair! Same thing with an Electronic Ignition upgrade. If the points are in need of replacement going over to EI is a repair and fixing the problem that eliminates the points. And there is absolutely no sense in spending money by repairing the charging system prior to upgrading to 12V just as there is no sense in replacing the points with new ones when you are going over to EI either.

Heck, it's to the point that a 6V battery is more expensive than a 12 volt. Cheaper to maintain an alternator too. Then add in it's getting harder and harder to find a battery charger that has a setting for 6V. Other than a show tractor why on earth would you keep one 6V? On all of my tractors that I converted to 12V it was because the 6 volt system was broken and the conversion was the repair. 2 of them have been converted to EI too. That's because with knee problems working on the front mount is a problem and this way I don't have to. Plus the last set of Standard points I bought were defective too. So now I don't have to mess with that problem either.

I can think of 2 reasons to keep them original: 1, you want to: 2 it's a show tractor. I can think or several good reasons to convert too: 1, expense of a 6V battery: 2, less maintenance 3, better reliability: 4, better extreme cold weather starting: 5, less expensive parts should a problem occur: 6, no hassle shopping for a battery charger: 7, compatibility with newer equipment. If a battery goes bad on my backhoe/newer tractors/car I can jump it with one of my formally 6V tractors.

Rick

Amend brother its just a excuse they dreamed up because they are lost in time... Lets have a prayer for them as there 6V parts are junk, junk that will kill off 6V systems and nuttin they can do about it other than try and look for a meaning...

 

[demaxx1]

Well, I hope this will be my last update on this problem. I went out and cranked up the tractor. I watched the amp gauge. I was just about to say crap! when the needle suddenly moved up to about 4 amps. Then increased as I increased the RPMs. I checked the voltage at the battery At idle I am getting right at 6.8 volts at half throttle it will go up to 7 and 7.2 volts.

I am going to look for the website that I read that from, I looked at so many sites trying to troubleshoot this, looking at my history doesn't help. If I find it I will post it.