Marvel-Schebler carb severely OVERfueling

goldwing2000

New User
Background:
1972-ish IH 3400A loader tractor with backhoe
C-175 IH engine with MS TSX-985SL carb
Was purchased with engine "running on two cylinders", according to previous owner. They replaced the cylinder head and did some carb work.

What I've done so far:
Pulled engine oil drain plug and about three gallons of gas/oil mix came out. Checked fuel pump, not leaking internally, replaced anyway.
Power-washed tractor for over 3 hours to blast away decades of gunk.
Replaced spark plugs, wires, cap, rotor, points and condenser. Reconditioned distributor (disassembled, cleaned, checked for excessive wear).
Performed compression test. Pressures are a little low, but all within spec and balanced (expected from a 40+ year old engine).
Pulled oil pan, inspected oil pump and bearings for damage.
Pulled carburetor, disassembled, hot-tanked, inspected and re-assembled with new bowl gasket. Found that gasket for fuel nozzle was missing, attempted to seal temporarily with RTV.

The issue:
Engine starts up but after just a couple minutes, the intake manifold gets ice cold, exhaust is pushing black smoke, engine bogs excessively and RPMs barely respond to throttle. Unspecified liquid is seeping from exhaust pipe at manifold. At first I thought the fuel pump was pushing fuel past the float valve and it was flooding, so I installed a 1-4psi pressure regulator. No help. Next, I put a sight tube on the bowl to check float level while running. This is where things get interesting. The fuel level in the float bowl is essentially zero. The engine is sucking up the fuel as fast as the fuel pump can push it in. If I pull the power on the shutoff solenoid (which blocks off the main fuel nozzle), the RPMs pick up immediately, the float bowl fills and it runs great for about three seconds until the fuel is depleted.

My thoughts:
A severely oversized main jet may be allowing the nozzle to simply be a straw and suck up all the fuel.
A crack or hole somewhere that's allowing ALL the fuel to be drawn into the manifold.
Engine is somehow making too much vacuum? Haven't put a vacuum gauge on it yet.
Engine is pushing all that raw, unburned fuel into the exhaust and muffler, which is then draining back into the crankcase and diluting the oil.

Planning to disassemble the carb again this weekend and perform another close inspection, paying particular attention to the main jet, nozzle and corresponding areas.

My options at this point:
Try to throw a premium rebuild kit at it for $65
Replace it with a 14996B Zenith from this site for $240.

Anybody experience this particular issue??
 
Some strange symptoms indeed...

A couple things come to mind, the silicone on the fuel nozzle, there are air bleed orifices in the nozzle, possibly the silicone has plugged them or the port they draw air from.

Is this an adjustable main jet? Is the adjustment needle reaching the jet? If non adjustable, is the main jet for an adjustable jet carb? If so it will be way too big.

But for the engine vacuum to be directly sucking fuel out of the bowl, about the only condition that will cause that is the choke is closed. Even a clogged air cleaned won't cause that.

Review the float setting when you get it apart. Be sure the float drop, and float level are correct. Check the float for fuel inside the pontoons, give it the shake test. Br sure the float is not touching the inside of the bowl. Give the needle valve the "suck test". Float installed and adjusted, turn the top upside down, with the weight of the float resting on the needle, suck on the fuel inlet fitting, put your tongue over the hole. If it won't hold vacuum, it won't stop gas.

I assume it has an electric fuel pump. I have had little success with fuel pressure regulators. Any way that you could go back with a stock fuel pump? Those carbs are not intended to hold back excess fuel pressure, they are primarily designed for gravity flow systems. A typical high pressure electric pump will over ride the needle valve every time.
 
(quoted from post at 17:07:44 12/06/19) Some strange symptoms indeed...

A couple things come to mind, the silicone on the fuel nozzle, there are air bleed orifices in the nozzle, possibly the silicone has plugged them or the port they draw air from.

Is this an adjustable main jet? Is the adjustment needle reaching the jet? If non adjustable, is the main jet for an adjustable jet carb? If so it will be way too big.

But for the engine vacuum to be directly sucking fuel out of the bowl, about the only condition that will cause that is the choke is closed. Even a clogged air cleaned won't cause that.

Review the float setting when you get it apart. Be sure the float drop, and float level are correct. Check the float for fuel inside the pontoons, give it the shake test. Br sure the float is not touching the inside of the bowl. Give the needle valve the "suck test". Float installed and adjusted, turn the top upside down, with the weight of the float resting on the needle, suck on the fuel inlet fitting, put your tongue over the hole. If it won't hold vacuum, it won't stop gas.

I assume it has an electric fuel pump. I have had little success with fuel pressure regulators. Any way that you could go back with a stock fuel pump? Those carbs are not intended to hold back excess fuel pressure, they are primarily designed for gravity flow systems. A typical high pressure electric pump will over ride the needle valve every time.

Float is adjusted properly (1/4" from gasket to float) not sticking and not punctured/saturated. It actually looks like the PO replaced the float, needle and seat, so that tells me that this has been an ongoing issue.

Fuel pump is the stock mechanical unit. I added the regulator under the assumption that MS carbs are generally gravity-fed and the mechanical pump was over-pressuring the float valve but that isn't the case.

Main jet is not adjustable. It is contained within the electric fuel shut-off solenoid and there is no needle.
31WX54DcvRL._AC_.jpg

There's definitely a chance that the jet is over-sized but I have no way of knowing for sure, since I can't find any resource that shows jet sizes for the TSX985SL. My next step is to disassemble the carb (again) and look for any possible damage. If that doesn't show anything, I plan to install an adjustable power jet needle and see if that helps.
wm_C3NN9G504A.jpg
 
Oh, and I'll order a gasket kit when I order the adjustable power needle so that I'll have a new gasket for the fuel nozzle.
 
Another possibility that has crossed my mind is that the venturi is undersized, creating excess vacuum past the nozzle. But again... no way to verify that.
 
Ok, so I pulled it apart again and I think it has the wrong venturi. It has a 46-A245 in right now which is a 7/8" venturi for 1 3/16" and 1 5/16" throttle bore. My carburetor has a 1 7/16" throttle bore. McDonald Carb has four listed for that size throttle bore, ranging in size from 27/32" to 1". I've e-mailed them to see what's the right one. I'm really starting to lean towards replacing it with the Zenith 14996...
 
Mystery solved. The fuel shut-off solenoid is also the path for fuel to flow into the fuel nozzle. As such, the main (power) jet is supposed to be installed into the end of the solenoid to meter fuel flow. The solenoid in my carb had no jet in it whatsoever, just a threaded hole where one was supposed to go.

mvphoto47351.jpg


So basically, the engine was sucking up every bit of fuel that the pump could deliver. Since the engine couldn't burn it all, the cylinders just pumped raw fuel through the head, into the exhaust manifold and into the muffler where it collected until the engine was shut down, at which point the gas would run back down into the manifold, into the cylinders, past the piston rings and into the crankcase (hence the reason 3 gallons of gas/oil mix came out when I pulled the oil drain plug).

The fix was to install an adjustable power jet and gasket kit. $30 from McDonald Carbs.

mvphoto47352.png


Now that it's fueling properly, I can set the timing, dwell, idle speed, idle mixture and WOT mixture.
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