Propane comeback?

[notjustair]

Even though I haven't driven or owned school buses for several years I still get School Bus Fleet magazine. It's kind of like an extension of this website - more technical information on machinery.

Anyway, the current issue is talking about the number of operators and districts running propane buses. There are over 7000 of them in 45 states apparently. When I was still driving I remember talking with a transportation director regarding this. Their district had just purchased two propane buses and through a government program were able to put in the fueling station reasonably. He was extremely impressed with the buses and the maintenance. They were getting 7 mpg, which was better than my carbureted 370 in my bus was getting. If I held my tongue right I could get 5 by the skin of my teeth. This was during the time when lots of new Internationals were making oil and there were headaches galore. He lamented not having more gas buses.

Do you think this will go anywhere? LP had its vogue in ag machines but bowed out to better diesels. We had an LP M&M tractor growing up but we used it so infrequently that I can't recall how it was fueled. That's the big deterrent for me. I use gas tractors for smaller jobs on the farm but would never get an LP because I have no way to refuel it. When I use a gas tractor I typically run over half a tank through at a time. I can't imagine it taking longer than just pulling up to the barrel and filling it.

I know it won't come back to ag for tillage. I'm just wondering whether it will continue to gain popularity in medium duty (school buses). One of the older techs told me years ago he fully expected to see gas motors offered again in the future. I only ran gas buses and really liked them. I didn't run over 150k miles on them - some needed a crate engine some didn't. Replacement around 90k miles seemed within the realm of possibility. That's what I needed for my favorite bus. On the other hand, I had one a year newer and sold it with 139k miles and the engine had never been cracked.

Just curious whether we will see it.

 

[LeonardWD45]

I deliver to a place that is running NG fueled Semis. They say that refuel stations are becoming more prevalent on the west coast. Nothing like a mechanic telling a driver to bring his semi so they can change the spark plugs. LOL.

Leonard

 

[CenTex Farmall]

Pollution requirements in the future may make it an attractive fuel. DFW airport runs their buses on CNG. They have the pipelines and fueling there. When you get behind one you notice the inside of the exhaust pipe is carbon free even though the bus is well used.

 

[rndy3788]

I work for a company building refuse and cement trucks I'm thinking right now 40% or better of the 2-3 thousand refuse trucks we build are CNG and maybe 20% of the mixers, it started about 10 yrs ago with tax incentives on the west coast and has spread to all the way around the country now , before 10 yrs ago we would occasionally see a nat,gas truck but its constant now , I believe we were the only manufacture able to work on them and we had the only cng station between the east and west coast for a while (se mn), now its becoming common place

 

[Bob Bancroft]

It all depends- on the prices of various fuels- on the initial cost, and maintenance cost of different engines, etc. A friend who recently retired got a part time job delivering new and repaired school busses. He just told me about driving a propane, and a gas powered one. Another friend who has been delivering eggs with small van trucks has been using Isuzu diesels. They have had some maintenance issues, but are better than a de-rated Navistar he has. He just put a new Isuzu on the road, with a Chevy V8 in it! It's been quite a while here in NY where a light diesel vehicle has not made any sense.

 

[Pair-a-dice farm]

Hmm If this is going to be the future, I may need to rethink my home heating fuel. I am getting to the age that cutting firewood is getting difficult so I was going to use my propane furnace more. If it is used more for vehicles that usually spells higher cost.

 

[robgIN]

The current generation of emission controls on diesels is not well suited to uses such as local delivery , busses , and other light duty operations. It does well for things that are operated at constant rpm and exhaust temp kept up. If things continue the same way , I think the propane powered medium duty trucks and busses have an opportunity to become a viable alternative to diesel power in the near future . Maybe even for some smaller chore tractors and skid loaders . The biggest turn offs to propane in the past has been refueling and the cluttered , hard to work on , conversion kits. Clean up the installation and make them easy to work on and the propane people may have a shot.

 

[paul]

Propane is currently cheap, govt likes to subsidise new stuff so they pay to get the new equipment needed, politician can stand and tell us how much is getting done how green we all are what a wonderful job they are doing.

Coal and diesel are the electrical and motive power sources that make the most sense in the USA, but we are not in a period of making sense.

Paul

 

[kevinecwi]

The new busses the district I drive for have been ordered with propane power. Drove one for the first time last week. Very quiet when running, almost no noise compared to the diesels. Acceleration is better too. They installed their own fuel site at the terminal so looks long term to me.

 

[Dick2]

We put in a CNG station at ADOT and converted a lot of vehicles to CNG per government mandate. It worked well in the 4-cylinder engines in the vehicles that I had in the ADOT car pool. However, we had stalling problems with v-6 and v-8 engines at almost every stop light. After we made the stop and idled for a short while, when we went to take off, the engines would stall in the middle of the intersection. If you hit the key starter fast, the vehicle would start right up and drive to the next stop light. They ran good on the freeways, but mileage was not that great.

There was no odor, no smoke from the exhaust, but when we checked them on our emissions testers, none of the v-6's and v-8's would pass the emissions test. They had a big story in the media about converting the Governor's Lincoln to CNG, before they ever contacted me about refueling at the motor pool at 11:00 p.m. I had to train a bunch of security guys who never really paid attention. When the car started stalling on CNG at stop lights, they deemed it not safe they went back to using regular gasoline - but they never told the public about that. We sent the Governor to prison so got rid of that problem anyway.

 

[Geo-TH,In]

The shuttle buses at the Grand Canyon all run on CNG. Sounds like a diesel. No smell. I was told the engines were made by Cummings and produce less air pollution.

 

[RBoots]

A buddy of mine works for a local school district bus garage. The long time director got the help from the government to switch the entire fleet over to new propane buses all at the same time. Then realized they now had to pay for a fueling station. It was causing a lot of headaches, and the drivers that knew how to put diesel in them were either too afraid or not confident enough to fill them with propane. So after seeing the fun they were having, the director retired. My buddy said he thinks that the guy was just trying to say f you to the school district. Now that the buses run propane, they now have to fill them after the morning run for the evening run, unlike the diesels that would go all day. He said they get absolutely atrocious mileage. They were selling off the old buses when it became apparent that the LP buses didn't have enough distance to make it to many of the other districts for basketball, football games etc. Not only would they not make it, if the did, there was no where to refuel them at nearly all of the places they went. So, when they had 2 diesel buses left, they decided to keep them, and they are used solely for taking the kids to the functions at other districts. He said they are an all around nightmare, and are just more of a headache than the old diesel buses.

Ross

 

[JK-NY]

I deal with many upstate NY school district bus fleets in my job. The trend to CNG and propane has not really caught on here , due to the need for another whole system fot fueling, and some reliability issues with the firsst propane buses, as well as marginal savings on fuel and limited range and re-fueling options if away from home.There are a few districts using propane , non e that I deal with directly thatr semm to be getting along OK with it now. The trend in small type A (made with a van chassis) has been going to gas engines for a few years now. The gas engine in these size buses get comparable mpg to the diesels with less issues and lower purchase cost and lower cost per gallon of fuel. I have seen GM chassis small buses with 6 liter gas engines go over 225,000 mi with no engine issues. Now two of the 3 major large bus manufacturers are offering a gas engine in full size bus and there is a lot of interest in them due to the increased cost and increased issues that come with the newer diesels with the required emmissions controlled engines. I remember when the gas engines went away, the last ones available were in GM chassis full size buses ( which havent been built in over 10 years now) . Thy used the 8.1 gasser which would hold up well in a full sized bus.

 

[wisbaker]

The requirements the government has placed on Diesels have made them less attractive than they used to be. CNG and propane fueled vehivles are an alternative BUT we don't have the fuel infrastructure to support them, fueling is more difficult (be interesting don't think the average AFSCME member is smart enough to be taught how to do it without blowing them selves up) and I really have to wonder about high pressure gas cylinders on vehicles that could be in accidents and catch fire. But on the other hand I suppose the fuel would burn off or vaporize so we won't have to worry about ground water contamination. Because of other pursuits of our blessed great father in Washington (sarcasm intended) they're isn't a lot of "big" spark ignition engines out there that are suitable for medium duty applications. About the only one left is the Ford V-10, heck Ford is the only one left doing gas motorhome chassis and medium duty trucks, except maybe some Blue Diamond stuff with Navistar badges and that's still the same V-10 engine. I suppose if we build enough Lp and CNG trucks the kinks and quwerks will get worked out, wonder how many people will die before then? About 2 years ago we had a CNG Peterbuilt stuck at the plant blocking two tanker bays, seems a solenoid failed and that's where she sat until they could get a wrecker out to pull it out of there, sudden and instant stop.

 

[ed will]

Hi, I. Knew a fellow with a dump truck hauling crushed rock about 20 miles. He had put a CNG system in it. The job paid by ton mile. He said he lost because tank was 1100 pds so cut down on his payload and. at noon he had to go way out of his way to refuel and lost 1 trip. He had paid a lot to install it. HE wished he didn't. Ed Will

 

[Indiana Ken]

I believe we will see more CNG, Propane and even
Gasoline engines going forward. Continuing emissions requirements add weight/cost to the diesel engine without an increase of efficiency. Conversely, propane, LNG and direct injection gasoline allows higher compression for increased efficiency of these engines.

Engine life is commonly attributed to the use of diesel, for fuel. However, it is more a function of engine design rather than the fuel used. A few years back I toured the CAT plant (large gas engines) in Lafayette Indiana. The tour guide stated the natural gas engines could last longer with less maintenance than a diesel.

 

[jimlll]

I have a propane tank in NW Arkansas. The propane distributor replaced the propaned fueled trucks with diesel powered. Just a mystery to me.

 

[David G]

I do not think it will catch on, I believe the BTU's per gallon of propane are less than gasoline and the storage/transfer is more restricting.

 

[CenTex Farmall]

As far as I could tell they never had running problems with the buses but then those were big engines. I could see there being issues with converting smaller computerized engines. I think the OEM's would have to take up the bit and offer propane (and NG) as an option and I don't see that happening due to low demand.

As for fueling, that is the big issue for propane and NG. Like in the school bus story above there has to be enough fueling infrastructure and it has to be simple enough to use for people who don't really understand what's going on. Kind of a chicken and egg problem and would probably take a government initiative to get to the right threshold.

 

[David G]

I totally agree with you on the longevity of Diesel / gasoline being due to engine design, I think the modern gasoline engines with direct injection could have the same longevity as Diesel. Look at how much longer the new gasoline engines are running compared to the older ones. It used to be unusual to get 100K out of an engine without an overhaul, now it is common.

 

[JMS/.MN]

Well....THAT made sense!

 

[David G]

I want to throw out some new technology.

Fuel injection with LNG or CNG is totally feasible now, and can give better economies than the former method of vaporizing and blending the air/gas mixture. I do not think that new equipment will be made using the old technology. We retrofitted an older NG 10000 HP engine a couple years ago from blended low pressure fuel to high pressure direct injection a couple of years ago. The economy and emissions on that engine are night and day better than the older method.

 

[David G]

I still do not see it for the general public, to much hassle with fueling.

 

[Dick2]

ADOT has several CNG stations, but they are NOT open to the public. We did make a deal with the city of Phoenix to use some of our CNG fueling stations so that did reduce ADOT's cost of using the fueling stations. The city of Phoenix shops are right next door to the ADOT shop and fueling station.

There are not many commercial CNG fueling stations in Phoenix so not many people want CNG vehicles.

 

[Eldon (WA)]

(quoted from post at 06:35:01 03/12/16) The shuttle buses at the Grand Canyon all run on CNG. Sounds like a diesel. No smell. I was told the engines were made by Cummings and produce less air pollution.

I've read a lot of posts about Cummings engines....I have yet to see one :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[schrade]

Was never as happy as the day we replaced our underpowered doggy propane powered propane truck. Not a issue with fueling as it ran off big bottle. I also drive school bus would hate to go back to a gutless bus.

 

[MARK ROBKE]

I just retired last year from working on trucks.I worked for a national leasing company in Cincinnati,but we were learning that on the west coast CNG(compressed natural gas) engines-Cummins and Detroit-were being used a lot;they were the next up and coming thing.They were mostly being used for local running/intracity applications.The main draw back is the lack of infrastructure for fueling,and facilities that were set up to allow repairs(special whole building ventilation),and also technician training.The reasons for using CNG,was emissions driven,and possibly fuel cost.As robgIN states,the current diesel emission controls do not work well with stop and go low speed driving,or even very cold weather:the exhaust system needs to stay hot for the particulate filter to work.We were having a hard time with particulate filters plugging on some of our units that ran city,and the system requires drivers to be proactive as a part of the emissions system,and not all of them were smart enough to be.The addition of DEF(diesel exhaust fluid) fluid made the systems more complex,and more problematic.The CNG engines have been used for a long time,but I believe mostly in stationary applications.I also believe that UPS is looking at them as well. As far as power,I cannot say,but these units are coming.I heard from major engine manufacturer's trainer,that they were looking into low rpm engines(1300 top rpm) for trucks with lower top speeds; all this is driven by federal emissions and economy standards.Mark

 

[RBoots]

Thanks a lot WisBaker, maybe I better stay at home and collect disability for lack of having a brain. Must not be as skilled as yourself.

Ross

 

[RBoots]

Everyone is right, the government hates diesel fueled vehicles. They don't have to deal with hauling or reliability or anything of the sort in their offices. Why let a diesel truck get 24 mpg with a bit of emissions, when you can choke it down, increase displacement, have the same power as a smaller engine, decrease reliability, average 14 mpg for a little lower emissions. A friend owns a VW Passat, said he keeps getting letters to join in a suit against VW for their emissions scandal. He said "screw that, it gets 50 mpg, then they'll want me to "fix it" and it will get 30 mpg, no thanks".

Ross

 

[buickanddeere]

Could more to due with simplifying the engine and emissions system vs "saving" fuel costs.
Today's $$$ Tier IV diesel is not the beloved simple reliable diesel of the 1990's.

 

[buickanddeere]

How about comparing an "Old" Diesel vs "new" diesel rather than "old" diesel vs "new" LP ?

 

[buickanddeere]

There are the backshop conversions of gasoline engines to LP. Then there are vehicles with engines designed to operate on LP.

 

[Geo-TH,In]

Not 100% sure , but there are claims we have 100's of year supply of NG. Some said converting to NG is better for the economy and the environment. The NG buses at the Grand Canyon smelled a lot better . The people who worked at the park, claimed in the past air pollution spoiled the view of the canyon. Now they can see for many miles. Could all be hyp.

 

[Dean]

I agree with the "old tech" regarding gasoline engines (probably not LP).

The federales are destroying the diesel PU truck market and have now started on the diesel utility tractor market.

Modern gasoline engine technology is closing the performance/economy gap between gasoline and diesel engines in such markets without the need of another tank to fill.

Expect to see the return of gasoline engines in sub 100 HP tractors and the increased use of gasoline engines in the HD PU market.

Of course, when gasoline engines again become common in utility tractors the feds will attack such as well. There is absolutely nothing with which the federales will not meddle.

Dean

 

[JerryS]

In my town a lot of attention has been given to natural gas conversion, primarily because we're sitting on a huge natural gas field (Haynesville Shale). The City has converted its buses and garbage trucks to CNG, and some other governmental agencies have done the same to a degree. A lot of natural gas drillers/producers are in this area, and most of them have converted their fleet vehicles to CNG. Many residents have also had their personal vehicles converted. NG Refueling is no problem, as there are a half-dozen or so stations in the area, open 24 hrs. per day. Friend of mine has a Silverado equipped for CNG or gasoline, and he loves it. If he goes beyond his refueling range he switches to gasoline.

I think we'll see increasing usage of CNG in large commercial fleets that operate within a defined radius of central refueling facilities, such as city buses, police cars, fire trucks, garbage trucks, school buses, etc. Long distance hauling may take some time, but I think it'll happen as more and more truck stops provide CNG refueling The price of natural gas will most likely always be considerably lower than the petroleum fuels, and it'll be many centuries before we run out, so I think CNG has a bright future as a transportation fuel.

 

[David G]

I found this link for the injectors.

http://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.us/en_us/us/component_us/PT_PC_CNG_Fuel-Injection-CNG_PT_PC_Compressed-Natural-Gas_613.html?compId=250

It would work fine with the microsquirt controller I use.

 

[greenlovinsynnie]

Everything I've heard says they're supposed to be greener and all but I have no idea how they're refueled. My fleet had Internationals for the longest time, probably 12 years. I think they actually have to get new buses after a certain mileage but that might depend on the school using them. I know we have Blue Birds now and have all sorts of trouble. Still using a lot of the old Internationals and Freighliners though. Think we still have 15 year old Thomas Freighliners in use (at least as backups.). The diesel emissions aren't all that great and from what I understand the propane busses are better in terms of that. The only problem is refueling and mechanics to fix them.

 

[MARK ROBKE]

At refineries you flamestacks shooting up in the air which is natural gas they don't/can't afford to collect,so,I guess there is plenty to around!Mark

 

[Clodbuster]

We had a Ford tandem on Propane and it would keep up with a Cat 3208.

 

[Geo-TH,In]

Back in the 70's when OPEC raised our gas prices, a neighbor had a LP tank in his F250. He could
run on gas or LP. He said in the winter he could start on gas, warm up the engine, then switch over
to LP. His truck had two gas tanks plus the LP.

 

[Tx Jim]

Back in late 70's I drove a 1 ton Ford with a 460 engine pulling a GN trailer picking up/delivering tractors that ran/pulled better on propane than gasoline.

 

[Leroy]

Quite a few years ago that was none here. Reason for going to diesel was they could no longer buy a propane engine powered unit of the size they needed. Found that out when they had a truck get wrecked and to replace they had to go to a smaller engine.