VR or cut out relay on my WD-9

[AlanAtwood]

I was under the impression I had a cutout relay o.n my tractor. I have the 4 position light switch LHDB:

But the guts loock a lot more complicated than a cut iut relay. The wire coming in to the top has batt voltage, and the wire coming in to the bottom is from the arm on gen. Field on gen goes back to the switch.

Grounding field on gen does not produce movement on the ammeter, hust a wiggle.

Connecting batt and arm/gen on the cjtout pegs the ammeter at discharge.. Gen passes motor test. Took it off and to alt shop and it is putting out 14v and 8 amps.

Is that a VR that someone put in place of a cutout relay and just wired it like a cutout relay?

I'm tempted to just get the universal relay from Brillman and put it on.

Thanks,
Alan

 

[Jim Becker]

Looks like someone wired a regulator as a cut-out (probably what was there originally). The deep discharge when jumping BAT to Gen suggests 3 things to me.
1) Maybe the ammeter is connected backwards. Which way does the needle move when not running and the lights are turned on?
2) Generator may need polarizing. Do that to see if it changes anything.
3) Generator may not be functioning at all, but seems unlikely as a shop has tested it.

 

[55 50 Ron]

With the 2 heavy coils, that is a VR, but it's not connected correctly to function as a VR. It is a
4 terminal regulator and it needs to have wires connected to at least 3 of the terminals to be
functioning as a regulator. Without seeing it close up, I'd say it is functioning (as you say) as a
cutout relay only with just those 2 wires connected.

 

[AlanAtwood]

Jim Becker,

The ammeter shows discharge when I turn the lights on with the tractor not running. Originally when I got it the mag had a bad coil, and they had wired in an external on. it also was showing discharge ever time the points closed and energized the coil. I took all that off and installed a rebuilt mag.
The yellow wire you see coming from the switch box is a ground I attached to the battery cable and grounded the switch box directly after sanding the rusty screws and contact points.

I'm seriously considering just putting on the Brillman c-o relay (actually I think it is just a diode) since this tractor has lots of battery power and only does trail-rides and lawn mowing for 6-7 acres with the odd parade thrown in.

it literally does not roll over once before it fires, and the flashers I use for trail rides are LED, so I could probably go months just running total loss without having to charge it. I was working on it for a while, so installed 2 12 volt batteries in parallel. Haven't bothered to take one off yet.

 

[rustred]

They came with a voltage regulator like that but it
belongs and mounts under the ammeter panel. Someone
has goofed that up. The terminals are also marked on it
for each wire.

 

[used red MN]

Lawn mowing with a WD9? That is more like lawn
crushing!

 

[Jim Becker]

Let us know what happens after you polarize the generator.

Before you get a replacement cut-out, try to determine what version of a generator you have. If you have one intended to go with a regulator, it may produce too much amperage to be run without a regulator. Does the generator still have the Delco tag? The tag will have a part number followed by a date code. The part number will tell us the answer. If no tag, need to start looking at various features/details of the generator to make a good guess as to type. The 8 amps you mentioned suggest output level of a cut-out matched generator.

 

[Janicholson]

what the light switch decal is telling us is that it was OEM with a cutout. as long as the light switch is grounded (frame of the switch) and the wire wound resistor on its back (for the gen not the lights) is connected to the F terminal of the Gen. and the bat terminal on that regulator is connected to the ammeter load side, and the arm(or gen) terminal is connected to the Arm terminal on the gen. it will work. The regulator then being used as a cutout only. Also the regulator must be grounded. Jim

 

[redforlife]

I'm thinking the cut out only had one set
of contact points. Regulators had more than
one set of contact points. This appears to
have 2 sets of points making it a
regulator.

If wired correctly, a regulator can be
installed, but when done, the low high
function of the 4 way light switch is
moreless by-passed or no longer functional.

That's why only one set of points in a cut
out. The use of the high or low charge at
the light switch eliminated the need for an
extra set of points in the cut out.
Actually it was kind of the other way
around since a cut out preluded the
regulator. An extra set of points was
needed to eliminate any control from the
light switch.

Many cut outs were likely replaced with a
voltage regulator. Later models from
factory I believe were VR from factory with
a 3 way switch. If you ever re-decal the
tractor, decal the light switch according
to what the set up actually is. Not what it
use to be, and or is not. Less confusion
for the next guy. Unfortunately for you,
sounds like you are the next guy in this
case. That's what I'm getting at about the
LHDB decal.

 

[John T]

Alan its hard to diagnose not being there, but based on your pics I can state the following:

1) The LHDB light switch is indicative of use with a CUTOUT RELAY (two terminal BAT and GEN) system. It
supplies a ground to the gennys FLD post for proper charging AND IT NEEDS A GOOD GROUND

2) The picture of the VR you posted is indicative of a 4 Terminal (BAT LOAD FLD GEN/ARM) Voltage Regulator
(Thats NOT a simple two terminal (BAT & GEN) Cutout Relay) HOWEVER its not wired correct for such a
purpose, maybe an attempt to use the cutout relay portion of the VR ??

3) If you by pass the VR and LHDB system altogether you can see (if all else is wired correct??) if the
genny itself is working if (provided polarized correct) you dead ground the gennys FLD post to see if it
charges then ??????

4) I would decide IF you want to go with a two terminal (BAT GEN) Cutout Relay and the LHDB system
orrrrrrrrr a full fledged Voltage Regulator (does NOT use LHDB to give gennys FLD its ground, VR does that
job) ?????????

5) In the event it actually uses the LHDB switch ??? IT NEEDS A GOOD GROUND to ground the gennys FLD
terminal PLUS a working VR or Cutout Relay NEEDS A GOOD GROUND ALSO

TO TROUBLESHOOT charging in EITHER a VR or Cutout Relay system SEE MY TROUBLESHOOTING LINK BELOW and make
sure battery polarity is correct and you polarize BEFORE start up.......

NOTE as far as the Genny Motor Test (see my procedure) typically it must pass BOTH tests to insure
charging

It looks like someone has mix n matched a Cutout relay System and a Voltage regulator System together. A
VR does NOT use the LHDB and the LHDB is used with a Cutout Relay system !!!!!!!!

See my procedure: https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ttalk&th=2060825

John T
John Ts Troubleshooting

 

[wore out]

''This appears to
have 2 sets of points making it a
regulator.''

To redforlife and the O.P. take a look at Page 15 in the Delco manual linked below (.pdf format).

https://www.harleykmodel.com/technical/regulators/dr-docs/DR5134.pdf

Unless originality is needed, I would consider keeping the VR and wiring it correctly.

 

[caterpillar guy]

If it will only put out a amx of 8 amps Why bother with any of it just let it run on the battery 8 amps is not much of a charge if the lights were on it would discharge that is ho little charge it is getting according to your rebuild shop.

 

[gene bender]

BEFORE you buy a replacement reg get the DELCO-REMY # from the generator so you get the matched reg for that gen go to CARQUEST
for the reg as theirs are made in the USA OR THEY USED TO BE DONT KNOW ABOUT NOW AS I HAVENT NEEDED ANY

 

[AlanAtwood]

Ok, much study and experimenting was done today!

The generator is polarized and is putting out 14 volts.
This is on the tag:1101 726
Which according to the parts book is the original generator for Lighting and Starting.

Disconnected arm wire from genny and tested the terminals on the VR. BATT is as it should be, full voltage from battery. The terminal the ARM was connected to is a dead short to ground.
I did some closeup photography of the terminals on the VR.
Left to right they are F, BAT and L, and the one on the bottom appears to be marked ARM, or something like that.

That explains the weird behavior of the ammeter though. Closing that relay or connecting batt to arm at the VR was a dead short that WAS a discharge. (I polarized the genny by running a wire from the battery to the arm terminal on the genny just to avoid any wierd stuff in the wiring harness. same for grounding the field terminal.)

My intention is to order the universal cut out from Brillman and be done with it. The way the tractor is used shouldn't present any problems keeping the batteries charged. It MIGHT be used for a hay ride or 2 on Halloween, but other than pulling some one out of a ditch at night, I doubt the headlights will get used much. The rear and Flashers are LED, which should not draw enough to even need the high setting.

 

[rustred]

Why not buy the actual voltage regulator that the tractor
came with and mount it where it is supposed to be.
These tractors never did have a cut out. I thought
cutouts came out when the 6 volt systems came out. The
w6 never had a cut out either. Have the regulator
mounted under the ammeter box also as was the same
with all these models. I dont think I have seen a cutout
on a 12 volt tractor either.

 

[AlanAtwood]

(quoted from post at 01:16:11 04/14/23) Why not buy the actual voltage regulator that the tractor
came with and mount it where it is supposed to be.
These tractors never did have a cut out. I thought
cutouts came out when the 6 volt systems came out. The
w6 never had a cut out either. Have the regulator
mounted under the ammeter box also as was the same
with all these models. I dont think I have seen a cutout
on a 12 volt tractor either.

Well, i'm looking at the illustration on page 152 of the WD9 parts book. There is an inset drawing of another generator mount like mine that is labeled "Without voltage regulation". That is the mount I have. It is partly on a bracket bolted to the side of the block, but the front half is bolted to a boss on the timing cover/magneto drive. That is why I didn't just go with a one-wire. I freely admit that it is unlikely, but that is typical of my luck in getting an oddball tractor. 8)

The wiring harness looks to be original as well, and appears to be set up for a curout relay on the radiaror brace. Cloth bundle, and no extraneous bits grafted on except from the light switch to the added coil, which i have removed. You at one time turned the lights on to energize the ignition system. I retasked that wire to the ground cable to and an extra ground path to the switch box

 

[55 50 Ron]

The paint that we can see looks really good. I assume you are in a dryer air part of the country to help preserve paint. Do you keep it in a shed when not in use?

 

[AlanAtwood]

Yep, under an awning. it sat out for a year after I first got it. Not running and I was getting killed at work with hours. Then we got an awning for the travel trailer and I made sure to get plenty of extra for a couple of tractors.

it has been repainted, but looks like many years ago. and a LOT of overspray.

Alan