Water in diesel fuel? Settle to bottom? Tests?

[andy r]

Neighbor had 30 hours on a rebuilt Deere 4240 injection pump. Head on the pump seized up. Rotary pump - Rosa Master. Rebuilder will not stand behind rebuild. Rebuilt pump has been on the tractor about 9 months ($2500 was cost to rebuild). John Deere store has documented hours as to when the pump was repaired and put back on. First pump did not have a seized head - just a wear part. Anyway they are saying water or biodiesel caused the problem and want another $2200 to repair this one. He does have a 500 gallon diesel tank and is not using that much diesel yearly as everything has went into the CRP. Fuel company says they have not had any problems but will send a water test kit. First question - - does water settle out of diesel like it does in a 80-90 wt transmission oil or gasoline? I seem to think it does. Could he pull diesel off of the bottom of the tank and see if there is water there?? Diesel tank has an electric pump with a steel tube to near the bottom of the tank. He wants to make sure it is either the diesel or something else before he puts another pump on and fills up. Last question - - if there is water in the diesel fuel can you clean it up? If you can't clean it up who can use the diesel? Thanks.

 

[wore out]

Water settles quickly out of fuel. If water got to the I.P. there will be a LOT of water in the bottom of the engine's fuel filter.

 

[Dieseltech]

Was the failed hydraulic head pressed apart to find the seizure point? There are several causes of head/rotor seizure, injectors, dirt, drive misalignment, over torque of delivery valve, excessive transfer pressure, water. PURE water won't seize the head USUALLY. Neighbor's White 2-155 has the Stanadyne/Roosa pump similar to the 4240 JD has. Years ago it died one fall after going down a steep hill to pull out a stuck grain truck. After I loosened all six injectors to check for fuel delivery, I found pump was delivering pure water instead of fuel. Filter was full of water too, as when going down the steep hill the suction tube picked up a LOT of water. Drained the tank, changed the filter, and added more fuel and bled the system until fuel showed up at the injectors. Engine started and ran fine after that. Told the owner to completely fill the tractor fuel tank to keep from fighting the condensation trouble he was having as tractor was mainly used for spring work only. then parked for ten months. Since keeping the tank full during storage he has no more water in fuel trouble like before, when he left it close to empty.

 

[cjunrau]

It settles out very easy. I had lots of water in my tractor (fell Through the ice). Water never made it to the engine as far as I know. Filter never let it through. Froze half full of water the next day. I drained the tank and melted out the ice from the tank. Filled the fuel I drain back in and have had no problems. My tank on the yard has a water filter on it and I change it every couple years. Cant say it ever was plugged with water just a bit of dirt.
Not sure if all filters on tractors stop water or not.

 

[guido]

andy,

Water will settle at the bottom of the tank. Drain the tank until just fuel comes out. Do take the filters off, and see if there is any water in them. Document the events if you can. Nowadays a video from a cell phone is easy to do.

I would take the pickup tube out, usually in threaded into the top of the fuel tank, and you can then measure how far it sits to the bottom of the tank. It should be at least 2 off the bottom of the tank/

Probably the tube is NOT the problem, but then you will know for sure. I suspect that you will not find much water. If there was so much water to kill the pump, you would have lost a few injector tips.

Water in the fuel, will usually do a good job on them,

Guido.

 

[Tx Jim]

If you remove fuel filter then pour contents of filter in a glass jar the water ""if present"" will settle to the bottom of the jar. There are kits available to test for presence of water in diesel.
https://www.dieselfueltestkit.com/

I was surprised to find out 4240 fuel tank only has a pipe plug in bottom of tank used to drain tank. My 4255 fuel tank has a factory installed drain cock.

This post was edited by Tx Jim on 08/04/2022 at 03:20 am.

 

[Jim.ME]

guido,
A number of John Deere models including the 4240, and many other brands, pull fuel from the bottom of the tank.

andy r
I don't see that you have said if any water was found in the tractor's fuel filters. As wore out mentioned the tractor filters should have had water in them

The fuel supplier may not have water problems. Your neighbor's tank may be "making" water from condensation, even more so if the tank is not kept full. A tractor tank can build water from condensation as well.

If he does not have one, he should install a water separator and/or water absorbing filter on the storage tank pump outlet. The storage tank should pitch down slightly away from the delivery pump, water will settle out in the low point, away from the pump. A small pump (like an automotive electric fuel pump) using a pickup tube (only needs to be 3/8 inch), that will reach the bottom of the tank can be used to pull some liquid out of the low end to see if it is water or fuel. His fuel supplier should have water check dye, like filling stations use (or should use) to check their tanks for water, he can use to stick the tank with to see if it has water at the bottom.

By chance, someone didn't by spray water on the engine while it was hot did they? I have known of a couple Roosamaster pumps being seized by cold water shock.

 

[moresmoke]

I would want to see the parts that failed. There are a couple different ways a Rosa Master pump could fail that can be called seized. Did the distribution head lock up and break the shaft, or are the plungers simply stuck in the bores? Water should leave rust stains behind. biofuel, then not being used could cause the plungers or metering valve to stick. The wrong bolts or washers on the injection line can damage the distribution head. Many ways this could go, may or may not be fuel related.

 

[caterpillar guy]

As siad yes water settles out to the bottom. We have drain plugs on all of our tanks ands drain the water out every so often at the bottom. And yes these are on the bottom not at the bottom. I welded some of them on myself. Cut the hole and welded a fitting on the bottom so it can drain out. We also don't put ao stand pipe to the bottom of the tank. Leave it up 4-6 inches. You can set the tank to slope towards the pump if you want to get the most of the fuel out. Keeping the tractor tanks full of fuel is the best way to keep water out of the tank on them. Just as cheap to run on the top half of the tank as the bottom half and no water. As for the pump I think you need a new pump guy. Or better support from your dealer. We've changed one pump in 80 years when the first diesel came on the yard. Not going to say they could not use a check but never needed to replace one till a year ago. That was an Rd pump on an 806. Leaks were so bad. And other issues. they could have rebuilt mine and sent back or just do a swap on it. The swap was a few days the doing mine was a month.

 

[RodinNS]

Personally I'd go shopping for a new pump shop....

I mean... did he not see water in the separator jar? Did the thing not quit due to a plugged fuel filter? Water will settle in any tank. You can easily pull a sample off the bottom or pump some fuel out and let is settle over night. I'd do that to confirm if there is water there or not.... but it should be readily obvious if there is water in the tractor's fuel system.
All I can say is this, and mabey today is my day.... but in all my years I've never seen a rotary pump lock up from water.. and I've drained a lot of water from separator bowls and changed frozen fuel filters. Even drained a pump body of water/ice once. It takes quite a bit to seize a pump. So back to my first sentence.

Rod

 

[wore out]

"A number of John Deere models including the 4240, and many other brands, pull fuel from the bottom of the tank."

It would be more accurate to mention there's a ''standpipe'' on the shutoff valve (Key #22 in TxJim's parts drawing) an inch or an inch and a half tall and a drain petcock or plug next to it.

NOT very accessible, though!

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 09:54:56 08/04/22)

"A number of John Deere models including the 4240, and many other brands, pull fuel from the bottom of the tank."

It would be more accurate to mention there's a ''standpipe'' on the shutoff valve (Key #22 in TxJim's parts drawing) an inch or an inch and a half tall and a drain petcock or plug next to it.

NOT very accessible, though!

Yes, you are correct. I should have said JD has a "standpipe" as original (I have found some that didn't but figured someone ahead of me must have thought they had a better idea. Other brands may or may not have a standpipe.

And not all JDs have a drain other than the fuel suction point. 2030 for example. You are right on accessibility, I've had to pull several shutoff valves to drain tanks with plugged "pickups", and it isn't fun or easy.

As usual one thing is certain; nothing is ever certain.

 

[Tx Jim]

(quoted from post at 08:12:08 08/04/22) Personally I'd go shopping for a new pump shop....
Rod

I agree with Rod. It sounds as if pump repair shop is trying to avoid warranty repair. Due to the $2500 initial charge the repair shop should be happy to repair the IP for free.

 

[Dieseltech]

Stanadyne has a service letter concerning head seizure causes. The seized head needs the rotor pressed out of the barrel sleeve the rotor turns in to find the seizure location and cause per the service letter. Anytime I get a pump in with a seized head, I INSIST on finding the cause before installing another pump, as I've seen the next pump seize too when owner is in a hurry. When the DB series heads seize, the drive shaft will break too. On the DM series, the shaft will not break as the seizure point is in the head/rotor assembly. SO, on the DM pump, just because the timing plate is turning does NOT mean the head is not seized. Sometimes the head needs cut apart in a chop saw so the rotor can be pressed from the sleeve. I just cut a CAV DPA head this morning after trying to press the seized rotor, it would not budge until the chop saw cut was made.