8N doesn't turnover

[FarmerBlair]

Hi,
I have an 8N (side mounted distributor) that is not starting. It is a 12 volt conversion.
The starter doesn't make a sound when pressing the starter button even using a newly charged battery. Prior to this, it always ran fine and would start right away even after sitting for months (in a barn). In this last case, the tractor sat for maybe 6 months before I went to try and start it.
It is possible I left the key in the "on" position all this time. I'm not sure now. The battery was pretty drained because it took almost overnight to charge it. In the meantime, I installed a different fully charged battery and still no response to the starter button. The wiring looked okay. I didn't block the clutch down, so it is possible it is stuck. But even so, I would think I would still hear even a faint sound if the starter is responding.
The tractor isn't close by (about 3hrs away), so before I go back and try to figure it out I was hoping someone here could suggest the more likely causes of the problem. My knowledge on electrical is not strong, so not sure what to check besides making sure the mice didn't eat the wiring. I'm thinking the easiest check would be to bypass the key switch, and, test the starter using jumpers. Besides that, I'm not sure what to do and don't want to start buying parts to find the problem. I guess I could figure a way to bypass the push button switch as well, but not sure the best way to do that. I wouldn't have thought leaving the key on for extended time would affect those parts though.

 

[R Geiger]

(quoted from post at 19:32:25 01/12/23) Hi,
I have an 8N (side mounted distributor) that is not starting. It is a 12 volt conversion.
The starter doesn't make a sound when pressing the starter button even using a newly charged battery. Prior to this, it always ran fine and would start right away even after sitting for months (in a barn). In this last case, the tractor sat for maybe 6 months before I went to try and start it.
It is possible I left the key in the "on" position all this time. I'm not sure now. The battery was pretty drained because it took almost overnight to charge it. In the meantime, I installed a different fully charged battery and still no response to the starter button. The wiring looked okay. I didn't block the clutch down, so it is possible it is stuck. But even so, I would think I would still hear even a faint sound if the starter is responding.
The tractor isn't close by (about 3hrs away), so before I go back and try to figure it out I was hoping someone here could suggest the more likely causes of the problem. My knowledge on electrical is not strong, so not sure what to check besides making sure the mice didn't eat the wiring. I'm thinking the easiest check would be to bypass the key switch, and, test the starter using jumpers. Besides that, I'm not sure what to do and don't want to start buying parts to find the problem. I guess I could figure a way to bypass the push button switch as well, but not sure the best way to do that. I wouldn't have thought leaving the key on for extended time would affect those parts though.

f it is wired as factory, the key switch has nothing to do with it not cranking. The key only controls the ignition. The start switch itself my be your problem. I would short out the wire going to the switch and see if it cranks. Make suere you have it in neutral first tho! One of mine every once in while, I have rotate the start switch button to get it to work. The start switch provides a ground for the solenoid. If shorting the wire going to the push button does not help, the solenoid itself may be bad. The solenoid should have two large wires and one small wire going to it. You could try jumping between the two large wires to see if it will crank. Do this with the key switch off so that it will not start. Keep it safe.

 

[old]

If you left the key on the battery is likely to be dead plus the points burned out and maybe even the coil. Start by having the battery checked and charged. Also check the points ot see if they are good or burned up

 

[Jim.ME]

Since you posted that you charged the battery as well as tried a different battery, with the same results, try what R Geiger suggested as a starting point. The points might be burnt, but that isn't stopping the starter from cranking the engine.

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley RIP]

First, a failed starter motor & relay click usually indicates a dead battery. Take the battery to your trusty local starter/alt shop and
have him test it on the special machine under load with specific gravity. You just can't connect a basic garage style trickle charger and
think it is good. If left unattended, a trickle charger can over charger a battery and boil out the electrolyte rendering it junk. You just
can't put more electrolyte in it, it doesn't work that way. While he is testing your battery, go thru the entire wiring system including
lights and verify you are wired correctly for 12V. If you have the OEM 6V Coil, you need to add an in-line external 1-OHM Resistor in the
coil circuit. Eschew the added resistor by swapping out the 6V coil with a verified 12V coil. Lighting kits were never a factory feature -
always a dealer option up til the 800, and many lights are wired wrong and can short out. Just because you have a 12V battery do not assume
you are wired correctly for the system. Battery charging faliure can also be caused because you do not have a GEN or ALT Belt Tensioner
Device attached. Without proper belt tension, you will never charge they battery. Once all is good with the world, invest in a FLOAT
CHARGER (DELTRAN BATTERY TENDER is good) to keep battery connected and at full charge when tractor is not running in barn.


FORD 8N AFTER S/N 263843, WIRING PICTOGRAMS by JMOR:

Tim Daley(MI)

 

[DennyD]

If none of this excellent advice works, check the ground connection. You'd be surprised how something as simply as grounding makes a difference. I had to seriously degunk my 8N's grounding connection, because the bolt had a generous amount of paint lathered onto it, and the grounding wasn't making a good connection.

 

[a32vickyhotrod]

(quoted from post at 19:11:30 01/12/23)

(quoted from post at 19:32:25 01/12/23) Hi,
I have an 8N (side mounted distributor) that is not starting. It is a 12 volt conversion.
The starter doesn't make a sound when pressing the starter button even using a newly charged battery. Prior to this, it always ran fine and would start right away even after sitting for months (in a barn). In this last case, the tractor sat for maybe 6 months before I went to try and start it.
It is possible I left the key in the "on" position all this time. I'm not sure now. The battery was pretty drained because it took almost overnight to charge it. In the meantime, I installed a different fully charged battery and still no response to the starter button. The wiring looked okay. I didn't block the clutch down, so it is possible it is stuck. But even so, I would think I would still hear even a faint sound if the starter is responding.
The tractor isn't close by (about 3hrs away), so before I go back and try to figure it out I was hoping someone here could suggest the more likely causes of the problem. My knowledge on electrical is not strong, so not sure what to check besides making sure the mice didn't eat the wiring. I'm thinking the easiest check would be to bypass the key switch, and, test the starter using jumpers. Besides that, I'm not sure what to do and don't want to start buying parts to find the problem. I guess I could figure a way to bypass the push button switch as well, but not sure the best way to do that. I wouldn't have thought leaving the key on for extended time would affect those parts though.

f it is wired as factory, the key switch has nothing to do with it not cranking. The key only controls the ignition. The start switch itself my be your problem. I would short out the wire going to the switch and see if it cranks. Make suere you have it in neutral first tho! One of mine every once in while, I have rotate the start switch button to get it to work. The start switch provides a ground for the solenoid. If shorting the wire going to the push button does not help, the solenoid itself may be bad. The solenoid should have two large wires and one small wire going to it. You could try jumping between the two large wires to see if it will crank. Do this with the key switch off so that it will not start. Keep it safe.

Gieger gave you excellent advise. If what he said does not work, try lightly tapping the starter with a hammer. Sometimes the brushes in the starter will hang up and not make contact, and tapping the starter will fix it. If this tapping solves the problem you more than likely, need to have the starter gone through.

 

[rvirgil_KS]

Where is your battery ground cable connected? If it is a short cable connecting to the battery box mount take a battery jumper cable and go from battery ground post to main frame near the starter. If this shows improvement get a longer cable and ground battery to main frame. There can be several rusty joints before current gets through the battery box and dash assembly to the frame and the starter.

 

[FarmerBlair]

(quoted from post at 05:23:53 01/13/23) First, a failed starter motor & relay click usually indicates a dead battery. Take the battery to your trusty local starter/alt shop and
have him test it on the special machine under load with specific gravity. You just can't connect a basic garage style trickle charger and
think it is good. If left unattended, a trickle charger can over charger a battery and boil out the electrolyte rendering it junk. You just
can't put more electrolyte in it, it doesn't work that way. While he is testing your battery, go thru the entire wiring system including
lights and verify you are wired correctly for 12V. If you have the OEM 6V Coil, you need to add an in-line external 1-OHM Resistor in the
coil circuit. Eschew the added resistor by swapping out the 6V coil with a verified 12V coil. Lighting kits were never a factory feature -
always a dealer option up til the 800, and many lights are wired wrong and can short out. Just because you have a 12V battery do not assume
you are wired correctly for the system. Battery charging faliure can also be caused because you do not have a GEN or ALT Belt Tensioner
Device attached. Without proper belt tension, you will never charge they battery. Once all is good with the world, invest in a FLOAT
CHARGER (DELTRAN BATTERY TENDER is good) to keep battery connected and at full charge when tractor is not running in barn.

When the tractor wouldn't start, I swapped out the drained battery and installed a different one that I was using to start my truck. It was a good battery, but still the 8N was dead. I think I have 12V coil in the 8N, but will double check. I haven't had a charging problem in the past with the tractor, so hopfully it is wired correctly. No lights on this tractor. Thanks for the reccomendation on the float charger!

 

[FarmerBlair]

You and DennyD make good points about the grounding wire. It was firmly connected to the battery box mount. I'll try running a jumper as you suggested and see if it makes a difference. Thanks!

 

[old]

You will need a heavy jumper as in something as big around as you index finger

 

[FarmerBlair]

Thanks for the advice. Maybe the first thing I'll try is to bypass the starter pushbutton switch that you mentioned. When I tried starting the tractor, the button did seem a little "mushy" to me... not a crisp click like a metal-on-metal contact would be when you press down. Though I'm not sure if that's the way it always was. I start second-guessing everything... like what position was the key in when I first attempted to start it: on or off? I didn't start paying attention until nothing happened. And then I'm not sure which position is on/off until I try pulling the key out. By then, I've turned the key a few times and forget about trying to save the world by guessing correctly the original position it was in. But my gut feeling is that it was left on.

 

[FarmerBlair]

Thank you to everyone for sending the great advice. I'll post back later with an update on what worked.... maybe next week.

 

[Hobo,NC]

One of the most common issues you will run across is a no crank condition. The most useful tool to diagnosis this issue is a VOLTMETER!!!!! its loaded with magic. It would be the first tool I pick up. I wish my buds here would at the least ask for the voltage reading @ a static condition and a dynamic condition.

https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=8000681&highlight=cable#8000681

https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=7783769&highlight=cable#7783769

This post went on for weeks I was hoping for the magic question it never happen. Folks minds got tangled up because of no useful information to go on, so I had to ask : (. You can jump to page 5 to learn how to track down the issue.

https://forums.yesterdaystractors.c...ostorder=asc&highlight=cable&start=60

One thing we know the issue is right under our nose, its not like its hidden under the tractor are in the cabin. The issue is inside about a 2' circle, that alone should keep the mind in the game.

The reason the mind gets sidetracked is know one takes the time to learn a few simple diagnostic steps.

The voltage is either not their, consumed are dropped (lost where did it leak out are terminate) That should be the VERY FIRST QUESTION ASKED! to diagnosis the issue. Until this question is answered may the force (luck) be with you : )

 

[Nyquil Junkie]

On the subject of bad cables... one of our skid steers did this to me a while ago. I had checked and replaced a bunch of wires and cables, but left the ground cable alone because, it was over 3 feet long and it LOOKED fine. Ends were clean and fine. The started waffled between click click click or start normal or nothing at all for a long time, I figured it was a bad ground. All gounds are clean? Ok I replaced the started and cleaned the mount. It still did it but not as much. Then it stopped doing anything one day. I tested everything everywhere. No luck like the OP. I moved the grounding point on the engine, iyt would work for a while and then start going wonky again.

Once3 I broke down and replaced the long ground cable, it fixed the problem. I split that old long cable open from end to end and the copped in places was fried almost to dust. The cable looked and felt fine.

Someone somewhere shorted the system out and cooked that ground cable inside. Had I actually tested the cable to begin with I would have saved myself hours of work and a pile of parts.

And I have also had brand new cables be crimped wrong, not stripped or even busted inside a perfectly fine looking casing. It happens.

needless to say now when I have a wire issue, I check all the wires involved before I do anything.

That skidder had multiple burned wires, I should have known to begin with someone had shorted out the whole system somewhere in the past.

bright and tight only works if its not fried black and crunchy on the inside.

 

[HarryVanderpool]

Similar to Junkie, I had a cable years ago that looked like brand new. No continuity, from end to end!!???
Finally out of frustration, I took a razor knife and slit the insullation, end to end.
BINGO!!
A pinhole along the length allowed moisture to enter and the cable had corroded into green dust in one spot. Open circuit.