Ford 3000 - Electrical Problems or Stuck Engine?

[Jim.ME]

Still that does NOT explain the starter just spinning... It should engage the teeth and spin over the engine or stop the starter... Just spinning makes me wonder if you have a starter problem, or the wrong starter...

From what he posted it didn't really sound like it was "just spinning" to me. In his first post he posted "there is a little whining sound from the starter - like the bendix is spinning out, but weakly" and "All the cables get a little warm after trying to crank a few times". A new starter just spinning should take quite a while to warm new cables. That sounded like a stalled starter straining to turn a stuck engine to me. That is why I asked if the engine was stuck from setting. It turns out it is, so until the engine turns freely, I don't see much sense in chasing a starter problem, that may not exist. His focus needs to be freeing the engine, then move to the starting system. Just my thoughts at this point.

 

[ErnieD]

From his post #13 above:

I pulled the starter and inspected the ring gear. No broken teeth that I could see. I pulled the spark plugs and tried to turn the motor using a socket on the front crankshaft bolt. It would not budge.

missed that, thank you

 

[sotxbill]

From what he posted it didn't really sound like it was "just spinning" to me. In his first post he posted "there is a little whining sound from the starter - like the bendix is spinning out, but weakly" and "All the cables get a little warm after trying to crank a few times". A new starter just spinning should take quite a while to warm new cables. That sounded like a stalled starter straining to turn a stuck engine to me. That is why I asked if the engine was stuck from setting. It turns out it is, so until the engine turns freely, I don't see much sense in chasing a starter problem, that may not exist. His focus needs to be freeing the engine, then move to the starting system. Just my thoughts at this point.

Good point... I interpreted the "whining" to mean the starter was just spinning... BUt if it cranks out and "locks", then yes the engine is probably stuck.. If its just whining and spinning,,, then the new starter is wrong or bad. Guess it depends on how you read his statement. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[kaemonawa]

Howdy folks. I let that penetrating oil set in the cylinders and today it turned right over when I tried to crank it. I hollered so loud when it turned over my wife thought I'd gotten hurt. The engine isn't actually catching and turning over on its own, but I found a huge fuel leak from the sediment bowl. The sediment bowl gasket is half missing. I was told it had issues with the fuel lines when it was originally parked, so I suspect I've finally gotten back to the original issue that got it put in the shed 6 years ago.

Going to replace that gasket and see if stopping the leak will get it to crank now. Thanks again for the advice!

 

[Jim.ME]

Howdy folks. I let that penetrating oil set in the cylinders and today it turned right over when I tried to crank it. I hollered so loud when it turned over my wife thought I'd gotten hurt. The engine isn't actually catching and turning over on its own, but I found a huge fuel leak from the sediment bowl. The sediment bowl gasket is half missing. I was told it had issues with the fuel lines when it was originally parked, so I suspect I've finally gotten back to the original issue that got it put in the shed 6 years ago.

Going to replace that gasket and see if stopping the leak will get it to crank now. Thanks again for the advice!

Let's keep terms clear here to avoid confusion. Cranking is commonly understood to be the starter (or a hand crank) turning the engine over to get it running. Cranking = engine turning over with starter. Firing = trying to run but dies when the starter is released. Running = the engine functioning without the aid of the starter. If you say it won't crank you are likely going to get advice to check your battery and cables, as not cranking is most often interpreted as the starter not working.

Based on your last statement, I would say you are fixing the sediment bowl leak to see if it will start and run now. Good progress.

 

[kaemonawa]

Alright, it will crank freely but not fire. I replaced the sediment bowl gasket, it no longer leaks.

I pulled a spark plug to check if there was gas in the cylinder, but it still smells like the penetrating oil, no gas smell. I don't know if that's a good way to tell though, so I'm unsure if the carburetor is what's stuck (it's a Holley model) or if there is no spark making it to the cylinders.

 

[Jim.ME]

Alright, it will crank freely but not fire. I replaced the sediment bowl gasket, it no longer leaks.

I pulled a spark plug to check if there was gas in the cylinder, but it still smells like the penetrating oil, no gas smell. I don't know if that's a good way to tell though, so I'm unsure if the carburetor is what's stuck (it's a Holley model) or if there is no spark making it to the cylinders.

find the drain plug in the bottom of the carburetor bowl. Hold a pint jar, cup, a container that will hold gas under the plug and remove the plug. see how long it takes to get a pint out of the drain. That is the first test to see that the carb is truly getting gas enough to work. The points are likely dirty/oxidized from setting. Take a piece of plan card stock, piece of a brown paper bag, or even a dollar bill folded up and use it to rub between the point contacts. Sometimes that is all it takes to get spark back. With a voltmeter check the voltage at the primary wire terminal of the wire from the switch, when the switch is on. If you put the probe of a test light on the terminal of the coil with the wire going to the distributor, you should see the light flash when the start is cranking the engine, if the points are working. Report back on these things. Go slow and check thing before changing parts.

 

[pomester]

find the drain plug in the bottom of the carburetor bowl. Hold a pint jar, cup, a container that will hold gas under the plug and remove the plug. see how long it takes to get a pint out of the drain. That is the first test to see that the carb is truly getting gas enough to work. The points are likely dirty/oxidized from setting. Take a piece of plan card stock, piece of a brown paper bag, or even a dollar bill folded up and use it to rub between the point contacts. Sometimes that is all it takes to get spark back. With a voltmeter check the voltage at the primary wire terminal of the wire from the switch, when the switch is on. If you put the probe of a test light on the terminal of the coil with the wire going to the distributor, you should see the light flash when the start is cranking the engine, if the points are working. Report back on these things. Go slow and check thing before changing parts.

3000 would have a fuel pump would it not? Not sure the drain plug/pint jar test is applicable here.

 

[Jim.ME]

3000 would have a fuel pump would it not? Not sure the drain plug/pint jar test is applicable here.

Good point, my error. Of course some have posted here of bypassing the pumps and running them gravity feed direct from the tank. So first thing should have been to follow the fuel line and see that the pump is still connected in the line. If the pump is still in the line and working, he should get a good bit of fuel in the jar quite quickly if he cranks the engine over, right? If he doesn't get fuel, then the pump and carb inlet need to be checked.

 

[Eman85]

Tractor has been sitting for 6 years! Take the complete fuel system apart and clean it replacing all gaskets seals and clean the filters. Have a fire extinguisher handy. Instead of hoping check for spark before you waste time and foul spark plugs.

 

[steveo3000]

Both Eman and Jim. have good points. I think checking for spark/sanding the points would be the less effort of the two, however you will likely see some part of the fuel system before you’re done. Plus then you can get an idea of the running condition between repairs, to narrow down if it runs rough because of something you did. That happened to me, i did a lot of work to the fuel system and ignition, so when it finally fired up (rough) I wasn’t sure if I had something to do with it or just another symptom of a sitting machine (it was my fault, the float slipped off inside the carb)

 

[kaemonawa]

Partial update

• I used a spark tester and all three plugs are getting good spark.
• All of the cylinders still smell like the penetrating oil, not gas.
• The lift pump is spurting fuel at a good pulse when cranking. I pulled the sediment bowl and checked flow there.
• Gas drips from the bottom of the carburetor after cranking several times.

I would guess there's an issue in or around the carburetor itself. Is there anything I should check with on the outside first, before pulling the carburetor and checking the internals?

As for taking the system apart, I intend to do a good bit of maintenance, painting, etc. once I can get it moved out of this shed. It's going to need a lot of TLC after how long it has sat.

 

[Jim.ME]

Partial update

• I used a spark tester and all three plugs are getting good spark.
• All of the cylinders still smell like the penetrating oil, not gas.
• The lift pump is spurting fuel at a good pulse when cranking. I pulled the sediment bowl and checked flow there.
• Gas drips from the bottom of the carburetor after cranking several times.

I would guess there's an issue in or around the carburetor itself. Is there anything I should check with on the outside first, before pulling the carburetor and checking the internals?

As for taking the system apart, I intend to do a good bit of maintenance, painting, etc. once I can get it moved out of this shed. It's going to need a lot of TLC after how long it has sat.

Gas drips from the bowl drain or from the intake throat of the carb? After a few cranks there should be a fairly good amount of gas drain from the bowl.

How do the plugs look? Are they dripping penetrating oil. if there is still enough oil in the cylinders it might foul the plugs when cranking. remove the plugs and crank it with the throttle wide open to blow residual out of the cylinders if you haven't done that. Ground the coil wire to the block while doing it to reduce the chance of a spark making a fire.

 

[sotxbill]

Partial update

• I used a spark tester and all three plugs are getting good spark.
• All of the cylinders still smell like the penetrating oil, not gas.
• The lift pump is spurting fuel at a good pulse when cranking. I pulled the sediment bowl and checked flow there.
• Gas drips from the bottom of the carburetor after cranking several times.

I would guess there's an issue in or around the carburetor itself. Is there anything I should check with on the outside first, before pulling the carburetor and checking the internals?

As for taking the system apart, I intend to do a good bit of maintenance, painting, etc. once I can get it moved out of this shed. It's going to need a lot of TLC after how long it has sat.

Its a UPDRAFT carb.. so yes, gas should be dripping after trying to start it... be sure to have it set just above an idle,, and on full choke while cranking... YOU have to pull heavy gas up wards into the engine... and you must choke it to do this. And if it does not start, it drips back down... If it starts to fire, ease the choke back in a bit... till it runs smoothest... then leave it there for a couple of minutes running and then try to ease it back in some more for the smoothest running... till it warms up enough to get the choke fully in. If the carb jet is badly stopped up, you may have to leave the choke out a bit to make it run correctly.

 

[kaemonawa]

Update

• Pulled the sparks and cranked to make sure the cylinders were clear
• Sparks weren't wet when pulled, but I cleaned them again to be sure
• Tried to crank again but there is still no gas making it to the cylinders from what I can tell

I have had the choke out while trying to crank it, and the throttle set low, but no luck thus far. I decided to take the carb off and have a look at it.

It was full of gas, but it seems like none of it is getting to the engine. The float bowl was full before I drained it. I noticed that the bottom seal plug is not properly seated, see the attached picture. Not sure if that gasket dangling there is supposed to be under the plug, but this is how I found it. I'm going to check if anything internal is busted and come back with an update.

 

[steveo3000]

Not sure if that gasket dangling there is supposed to be under the plug, but this is how I found it. I'm going to check if anything internal is busted and come back with an update.

For sure it is supposed to be seated in between that bottom plate and the carb housing.

 

[kaemonawa]

I checked the carb interior, no broken parts that I could see. I reseated the bottom seal plate and gasket, and remounted the carb on the tractor.

After trying to crank again, it was the same as before. With the exception of a single backfire through the carb, as best I can tell. There was a bang and a puff of smoke from the carb around the bottom seal plate.

It occurs to me now that the fuel tank has 6 year old gas in it. I was so focused on getting through the electrical issues before that I never thought to change it out.

 

[kaemonawa]

New gas and it now fires intermittently when cranked, but won't catch and start.

 

[kaemonawa]

Update - I can get intermittent firing, but not enough to start the tractor. I put new spark plugs in since the old ones looked pretty gnarly, and no change. The cylinders are definitely getting fuel, it was a strong smell on each on when I pulled the old plugs. I did notice since it was getting dark out that the spark tester showed a very dim spark, except when the cylinder would fire, then it was bright. Not sure if that means the plugs are getting weak spark from the distributor/coil? Has anyone encountered this before? I feel like I'm just this close to getting it to start.

 

[sotxbill]

DID... you pull the dist cap and clean the points??? With the engine bumps over till the points are closed,, then run a piece of paper through the closed points to clean off any corrosion. (by carefully pulling the points open, inserting the paper, then letting them close, and pulling the paper through them.) With the engine bumped over till the points are fully open, you should see a gap of .025. ( in the old days you could use the "opening cover" of a match book to get close). Clean points and correct gap are needed. Note you will almost positively need to pull the wires off the cap to get it open... YOU MUST mark those wires and the top of the cap, to get them back in place correctly!!!!... and the back hold down clip on the cap it difficult to get off and more difficult to snap back on... AND you must be sure the cap is seated correctly on the dist when fastening the clips or you will break the rotor or cap.