Electronic conversion - again

[Cash4Toys]

So a few weeks ago I had asked as to why a Pertronix would allow spark to go to plugs and the distributer cap hold down clamps. It was suggested the cap was bad. New came today, cap and rotor and it still jumps to the clips, actually it looks like it starts at the clips. So, where to look? Could it be a ground issue? And is the plate that supports the pertronix suppose to grounded or neutral?

 

[wore out]

So a few weeks ago I had asked as to why a Pertronix would allow spark to go to plugs and the distributer cap hold down clamps. It was suggested the cap was bad. New came today, cap and rotor and it still jumps to the clips, actually it looks like it starts at the clips. So, where to look? Could it be a ground issue? And is the plate that supports the pertronix suppose to grounded or neutral?

I think you will find there is some sort of mis-match between the distributor, module/magnet wheel, and cap/rotor that is causing the module to be triggered when the rotor is BETWEEN the individual high-tension towers rather than next to them. And, YES, the module mounting plate needs to be grounded

 

[Cash4Toys]

So, to take this a little further, Pertonix has a Red and Black wire. Red to the + and Black to the - posts on the coil. Someone told me to check with an ohmmeter from the distributer plate to the ground /negative post on the battery and it should read no resistance. Question is what if it dosent read no resistance? Then where does one look? Is the ground post of the coil isolated from the coil caseing or are the grounded through the coil caseing?

 

[wore out]

So, to take this a little further, Pertonix has a Red and Black wire. Red to the + and Black to the - posts on the coil. Someone told me to check with an ohmmeter from the distributer plate to the ground /negative post on the battery and it should read no resistance. Question is what if it dosent read no resistance? Then where does one look? Is the ground post of the coil isolated from the coil caseing or are the grounded through the coil caseing?

The fact that the module is working with the coil to make spark IS an indication that it is grounded AND the fact that you have not (YET) let the smoke out of the module confirms that.

There should be NO continuity between ANY of the 3 coil terminals and it's "case".

What is the resistance (measured between the terminals at each end) of your sparkplug wires. (There will be same variation between ones of different length ASSUMING they are "suppression wires.)

 

[Cash4Toys]

So, if check the distributer plate to the battery ground with an ohmmeter and do have some resistance it would indicate a faulty ground to the distributer plate? O resistance would indicate a good ground by another means and not through the ohmmeter? Going to replace the plug now anyway, but it does have a very hot spark at the plugs as well as the cap retaining clips.

 

[wore out]

So, if check the distributer plate to the battery ground with an ohmmeter and do have some resistance it would indicate a faulty ground to the distributer plate? O resistance would indicate a good ground by another means and not through the ohmmeter? Going to replace the plug now anyway, but it does have a very hot spark at the plugs as well as the cap retaining clips.

Touch your Ohmmeter leads together and note the reading (probably won't quite be zero), then test as you planned. If a significantly higher reading is noted, test from battery terminal to a good bare, shiney area on the engine block, then to a similar area on the distributor, body, then the EI mounting plate and note where any significant increase in Ohms (if any) occurs.

Also, please Ohm out the sparkplug wires and let us know what you find.

 

[Gambles]

Touch your Ohmmeter leads together and note the reading (probably won't quite be zero), then test as you planned. If a significantly higher reading is noted, test from battery terminal to a good bare, shiney area on the engine block, then to a similar area on the distributor, body, then the EI mounting plate and note where any significant increase in Ohms (if any) occurs.

Also, please Ohm out the sparkplug wires and let us know what you find.

And everyone knows this, but also make sure any wires or circuits being tested are not energized or “hot”.

 

[Cash4Toys]

That's starting to register, it'll be the first part of the week before I get down there to work on it, but I will let let you know.
Appreciate your taking the time to answer these questions.

 

[used red MN]

I think you will find there is some sort of mis-match between the distributor, module/magnet wheel, and cap/rotor that is causing the module to be triggered when the rotor is BETWEEN the individual high-tension towers rather than next to them. And, YES, the module mounting plate needs to be grounded

I agree with wore out, this could be caused by an incorrectly timed spark occurrence. So as wore out explained the spark is occurring at an incorrect time or degrees of rotation of the distributor shaft in comparison to where the rotor is pointing. This is set by the distributor cap indexing notch to the distributor housing. And currently by the EI trigger unit’s position on the plate and the location of the trigger wheel or reluctor on the distributor shaft. In the original configuration the distributor was designed so that the points when set at the proper gap would open or “break” at a certain point. This position or degree of rotation of the distributor shaft positioned the rotor terminal in alignment with the cap plug wire tower terminals. Do not confuse this incorrect timing with the timing of the spark needed to make the engine run. If the timing for firing the cylinders was a not dependent on the position or timing of the distributor it could be rotated 360 degrees and still fire. No to long ago on these forums a no start issue was the topic. Someone incorrectly replied that maybe the distributor was turned to far out of time so the rotor was not lining up correctly causing a no fire. I did not reply to tell them they were incorrect, but indeed they were. We need to explore the method that the distributor has been converted to provide a trigger to the module. I believe Petronix uses a magnetic pulse system to provide this trigger. How is this assembled in the distributor? We need photos. You said in your first post “it ran good several years ago” was this electronic ignition installed as it is now when it ran? Or was this installed after that? I personally feel until this question is addressed chasing all other “rabbit holes” is meaningless. The electronic ignition is provided a spark, so why are you trying to find things wrong with it?
Link to first post on subject

 

[Cash4Toys]

I agree with wore out, this could be caused by an incorrectly timed spark occurrence. So as wore out explained the spark is occurring at an incorrect time or degrees of rotation of the distributor shaft in comparison to where the rotor is pointing. This is set by the distributor cap indexing notch to the distributor housing. And currently by the EI trigger unit’s position on the plate and the location of the trigger wheel or reluctor on the distributor shaft. In the original configuration the distributor was designed so that the points when set at the proper gap would open or “break” at a certain point. This position or degree of rotation of the distributor shaft positioned the rotor terminal in alignment with the cap plug wire tower terminals. Do not confuse this incorrect timing with the timing of the spark needed to make the engine run. If the timing for firing the cylinders was a not dependent on the position or timing of the distributor it could be rotated 360 degrees and still fire. No to long ago on these forums a no start issue was the topic. Someone incorrectly replied that maybe the distributor was turned to far out of time so the rotor was not lining up correctly causing a no fire. I did not reply to tell them they were incorrect, but indeed they were. We need to explore the method that the distributor has been converted to provide a trigger to the module. I believe Petronix uses a magnetic pulse system to provide this trigger. How is this assembled in the distributor? We need photos. You said in your first post “it ran good several years ago” was this electronic ignition installed as it is now when it ran? Or was this installed after that? I personally feel until this question is addressed chasing all other “rabbit holes” is meaningless. The electronic ignition is provided a spark, so why are you trying to find things wrong with it?
Link to first post on subject

It did run good a couple of years ago when it was parked. That conversion was put on prior to that, a year prior when the engine was completely gone through. Timing is pretty close, that is when turning the engine over #1 sparks with a degree of what it's suppose to, close enough to start it and check it with a light. Problem is, it sparks to the cap clips. Pertonix says it's a bad ground, hence the grounding questions. I'll have to look at it to see what the trigger system is on it.
Even at that, I have manually turned distributer caps to find a place where the engine would fire and pretty confident I had some turned far enough to not align with the rotor and never had stray voltage dance around the cap like this.

 

[LarrySTN]

So a few weeks ago I had asked as to why a Pertronix would allow spark to go to plugs and the distributer cap hold down clamps. It was suggested the cap was bad. New came today, cap and rotor and it still jumps to the clips, actually it looks like it starts at the clips. So, where to look? Could it be a ground issue? And is the plate that supports the pertronix suppose to grounded or neutral?

My first question, are the plug wires actual wire or are they carbon core. I've seen failed carbon core (resistor) wires cause some weird stuff at the distributor. I don't think the problem is with the pertronjx itself. Check the wires with an ohm meter. If the plug and coil wires show more than 5000 ohms trash them and install wire core spark plug wires.

 

[used red MN]

It did run good a couple of years ago when it was parked. That conversion was put on prior to that, a year prior when the engine was completely gone through. Timing is pretty close, that is when turning the engine over #1 sparks with a degree of what it's suppose to, close enough to start it and check it with a light. Problem is, it sparks to the cap clips. Pertonix says it's a bad ground, hence the grounding questions. I'll have to look at it to see what the trigger system is on it.
Even at that, I have manually turned distributer caps to find a place where the engine would fire and pretty confident I had some turned far enough to not align with the rotor and never had stray voltage dance around the cap like this.

Could just be the design of that cap has thin areas that do not insulate as well. An there is the “land of almost right” factor as well. What wore out said trigger a legitimate explanation to me so I ran with it. I understand that this is 2nd hand information to you so more info on that. Still back to pictures of the set up in the distributor and restating if the ignition is making a spark you can’t fix something that is not broke.

 

[Cash4Toys]

They are actual wire, and DO carry the spark to each plug in the proper sequence. Every time it fires to a plug it also fires to the hold down clips. Plugs out, valve cover off, number 1 intake closing, rotating engine by hand when timing marks are aligned spark occurs at the #1 plug and clips. Continue with #3 and plug fires as do the clips, and repeats the same with 2 & 4. It actually looks like the spark is traveling up from the clips toward the plug wires, but I guess I wouldn't swear to that one. Pertronix tech says bad ground, with no further input. Hence the grounding questions as this is something I've never run into. To my knowledge, even if the sequence would be off, that is rotor between terminals, it should not fire from the clips. Least ways I have never seen it happen before, unless a cap bad.

 

[MSD]

They are actual wire, and DO carry the spark to each plug in the proper sequence. Every time it fires to a plug it also fires to the hold down clips. Plugs out, valve cover off, number 1 intake closing, rotating engine by hand when timing marks are aligned spark occurs at the #1 plug and clips. Continue with #3 and plug fires as do the clips, and repeats the same with 2 & 4. It actually looks like the spark is traveling up from the clips toward the plug wires, but I guess I wouldn't swear to that one. Pertronix tech says bad ground, with no further input. Hence the grounding questions as this is something I've never run into. To my knowledge, even if the sequence would be off, that is rotor between terminals, it should not fire from the clips. Least ways I have never seen it happen before, unless a cap bad.

I believe your not supposed to use solid wire with the Petronix. Carbon fiber only. What is the gap on your plugs?

 

[JMOR]

That's starting to register, it'll be the first part of the week before I get down there to work on it, but I will let let you know.
Appreciate your taking the time to answer these questions.

If you haven't changed the EI mount inside the distributor since it ran correctly, then this isn't your problem, but it cost nothing to look. Be sure you are using the CCW mounting screw hole.-----NOT the CW hole shown in this picture.

 

[GlenIdaho]

I believe your not supposed to use solid wire with the Petronix. Carbon fiber only. What is the gap on your plugs?

X2 on solid wires are not to be used. They cause interference with the module.

 

[MarkB_MI]

So a few weeks ago I had asked as to why a Pertronix would allow spark to go to plugs and the distributer cap hold down clamps. It was suggested the cap was bad. New came today, cap and rotor and it still jumps to the clips, actually it looks like it starts at the clips. So, where to look? Could it be a ground issue? And is the plate that supports the pertronix suppose to grounded or neutral?

The Pertronix unit is entirely on the primary ignition circuit, and any voltage high enough to create an arc is on the secondary circuit. So I think it's safe to assume your problem is not related to the electronic ignition conversion.

In order for the coil to develop enough voltage to jump from the coil wire to the distributor cap hold-down clips, that has to be the shortest path for the spark to cross. One possibility is the rotor is turned about 45 degrees from where it should be when the spark occurs. In this case, the rotor might be an inch away from the nearest plug wire terminal, making it easier to jump the gap to a hold-down clip that to the spark plug wire. Either the distributor could be way out of time, or the distributor gear might have slipped on the distributor shaft, due to a sheared pin holding the gear on the shaft.

 

[Gene in Mi]

It is very odd that you are seeing spark at the plugs AND the clips.

When you say you see spark at the clips, where is it coming from? The terminals that the plug wires connect to? Are you saying all four plug wire terminals jump a spark all the way to the two distributor cap clips?

Are you sure the coil is grounded?

 

[Janicholson]

So a few weeks ago I had asked as to why a Pertronix would allow spark to go to plugs and the distributer cap hold down clamps. It was suggested the cap was bad. New came today, cap and rotor and it still jumps to the clips, actually it looks like it starts at the clips. So, where to look? Could it be a ground issue? And is the plate that supports the pertronix suppose to grounded or neutral?

Radio suppression wires are supposed to be used. If they are solid wire, they may be causing the issue. I would purchase Magnetic suppression wires (they conduct 100% but limit radio emissions.) if nothing else, use quality carbon core wires. Jim

NGK mag suppression wires

 

[buickanddeere]

Drill view holes in the top of an old cap . To verify the rotor is lined up with the terminal when she sparks .