MF Starter Motor

[Gilbert69]

I have recently become the proud owner of my first tractor, a French assembled 165 mark iii. It is a wonderful machine and for the most part does everything I need. However recently when I try to start it all I get is a click. I know the brushes can be changed but as I live in England and keep the tractor in France I am looking for a new starter. It is fitted with a DUCELLIER 6180a - 12v and 10 teeth.
The parts books lists two DUCELLIERs as having been fitted but I have no idea which relates to the 6180a and searching online has yielded nothing so far.
The OEM part numbers are 963989M1 and 968856M1.
Can anyone tell me please which I have and if there is any difference between these two parts.
In case it helps the starter is on the left when viewed from the seat and the tractor has a A4.212

 

[stevieb49829]

I have recently become the proud owner of my first tractor, a French assembled 165 mark iii. It is a wonderful machine and for the most part does everything I need. However recently when I try to start it all I get is a click. I know the brushes can be changed but as I live in England and keep the tractor in France I am looking for a new starter. It is fitted with a DUCELLIER 6180a - 12v and 10 teeth.
The parts books lists two DUCELLIERs as having been fitted but I have no idea which relates to the 6180a and searching online has yielded nothing so far.
The OEM part numbers are 963989M1 and 968856M1.
Can anyone tell me please which I have and if there is any difference between these two parts.
In case it helps the starter is on the left when viewed from the seat and the tractor has a A4.212

Gilbert, before you start replacing parts, check all your electrical connections. Loose or corroded battery cables can cause the click, as well as a poor starter solenoid. Clean the battery terminals and cables, clean and tighten the connections of the cables at the starter, the solenoid and the ground. Then, if you still haven't fixed the problem, have the battery checked for sufficient voltage. If the battery checks out, try tapping the solenoid as you turn the switch. If that doesn't work, jump the two large contacts on the solenoid and if the engine turns over, replace the solenoid. The click usually means the start circuit is getting current to the solenoid. However, you may still have a bad connection between the start switch and the solenoid. steve

 

[Gilbert69]

Hello Steve. Thank you for taking the trouble to reply. You are of course totally correct and I have checked a number of the points you raise. The reason for wanting to go down the new starter road is twofold. First of all, being resident in a non-EU country, the time I can spend in France where the tractor is kept is quite limited and I have an awful lot of work to do due to recent storm damage and also being absent from the country for six months. I really need to be able to use the tractor as soon as I get there. The second reason is, I made a complete rookie error. I assumed the fuel gauge and sender were working and I ran out of fuel. Not realising what the issue was I cranked the engine for just a bit too long and the solenoid started smoking. I'm sure it will need replacing but I don't think that is a 5 minute exercise for a novice. If I get any of it wrong I would then have to wait for delivery of replacement parts and in rural France that is not a quick process.

So my plan is to buy a new starter so I can hit the road running and also buy a new solenoid and bushes to replace the existing when I have time to strip the old starter down. Cheers Gilbert

 

[stevieb49829]

Hello Steve. Thank you for taking the trouble to reply. You are of course totally correct and I have checked a number of the points you raise. The reason for wanting to go down the new starter road is twofold. First of all, being resident in a non-EU country, the time I can spend in France where the tractor is kept is quite limited and I have an awful lot of work to do due to recent storm damage and also being absent from the country for six months. I really need to be able to use the tractor as soon as I get there. The second reason is, I made a complete rookie error. I assumed the fuel gauge and sender were working and I ran out of fuel. Not realising what the issue was I cranked the engine for just a bit too long and the solenoid started smoking. I'm sure it will need replacing but I don't think that is a 5 minute exercise for a novice. If I get any of it wrong I would then have to wait for delivery of replacement parts and in rural France that is not a quick process.

So my plan is to buy a new starter so I can hit the road running and also buy a new solenoid and bushes to replace the existing when I have time to strip the old starter down. Cheers Gilbert

Good plan. And Good Luck. I guess us Americans take it for granted we can run to a number of local parts stores and bring home what we need that day. Steve

 

[Jim.ME]

Hello Steve. Thank you for taking the trouble to reply. You are of course totally correct and I have checked a number of the points you raise. The reason for wanting to go down the new starter road is twofold. First of all, being resident in a non-EU country, the time I can spend in France where the tractor is kept is quite limited and I have an awful lot of work to do due to recent storm damage and also being absent from the country for six months. I really need to be able to use the tractor as soon as I get there. The second reason is, I made a complete rookie error. I assumed the fuel gauge and sender were working and I ran out of fuel. Not realising what the issue was I cranked the engine for just a bit too long and the solenoid started smoking. I'm sure it will need replacing but I don't think that is a 5 minute exercise for a novice. If I get any of it wrong I would then have to wait for delivery of replacement parts and in rural France that is not a quick process.

So my plan is to buy a new starter so I can hit the road running and also buy a new solenoid and bushes to replace the existing when I have time to strip the old starter down. Cheers Gilbert

You may need to talk with a MF dealer on your side of the pond. I have been looking in the parts books online some. The 6180A (Lucas supplied, Ducellier type) shows up in the 165 (GBR) parts book, but not the part numbers you posted. From what I see, none of those numbers (6180A or your MF numbers) appear in the North American 165 parts book, which shows only Delco Remy starters which are different numbers than you posted. I find a few ads that list one or the other of the MF part numbers you posted.

Web search for ads by the part numbers. The two appear to be opposite hand mounts. The YT parts store shows a replacement for the 968852M1 and notes it is a right-hand mount (YT item number S.41137). The 963989M1 looks like MF186285M1 interchanges based on a couple ads and appears to be a left-hand mount in all pictures. The YT store has item number 112303 as a replacement. Their picture shows it is a left-hand mount, but that is not in the description. (As far as I know the number after the M is a revision number, 1 being the original and the higher m numbers are backwards compatible.)

There also seems to be some mentions of cold climate and temperate climate. It could be either will work however one likely has a higher kw rating than the other for cold climate use.

A guess would be that you need the 963989M1 starter as you posted your starter is on the left side.

Best regards,
Jim

 

[Gilbert69]

Thank you. Any thoughts on the part number or perhaps more importantly, do you know if there is a difference between 963989M1 and 968856M1? Cheers Gilbert

 

[Jim.ME]

Thank you. Any thoughts on the part number or perhaps more importantly, do you know if there is a difference between 963989M1 and 968856M1? Cheers Gilbert

I guess my eyes crossed from looking at numbers and I typed 2 instead of 6. If you look at the YT store S.41137 is the 968856M1, not 968852M1 as I mistyped. Sorry about the error. I suggest you use the part numbers and ads to chase the numbers yourself, like I did, to be sure I haven't slipped elsewhere.

 

[Gilbert69]

Thank you for your help Jim. I think you have come across the same problem I am facing every time I try and find a part for the 165 mark iii. As far as I can tell, this model wasn't widely sold (perhaps not even at all) in England as I have a US published 165 parts book and in some areas parts listed simply do not fit my mark iii and in others, may fit but have completely different numbers / manufacturers such as the starter motor. A second parts book I have recently obtained covers the mark iii and the 178-8 and is published in French, German, Italian and English so targeted the European market and has a reference on the cover of 957368M2. That's the easy bit as so far quite a few of the parts I have tried to source do not seem to be available and I haven't found any means of cross referencing the parts listed in the mark iii book with parts in other catalogues where they are the same but have been given different numbers. If I'm honest, I don't know if that actually happened. Cheers Gilbert

 

[Jim.ME]

Thank you for your help Jim. I think you have come across the same problem I am facing every time I try and find a part for the 165 mark iii. As far as I can tell, this model wasn't widely sold (perhaps not even at all) in England as I have a US published 165 parts book and in some areas parts listed simply do not fit my mark iii and in others, may fit but have completely different numbers / manufacturers such as the starter motor. A second parts book I have recently obtained covers the mark iii and the 178-8 and is published in French, German, Italian and English so targeted the European market and has a reference on the cover of 957368M2. That's the easy bit as so far quite a few of the parts I have tried to source do not seem to be available and I haven't found any means of cross referencing the parts listed in the mark iii book with parts in other catalogues where they are the same but have been given different numbers. If I'm honest, I don't know if that actually happened. Cheers Gilbert

The parts catalog publication number you posted does not appear in a search on the AGCO Publication site we have access to. A this point the best I can offer is to use the AGCO dealer locator to find a Massey Ferguson dealer in England or France and see if they can help you. If you have other part numbers in the latest parts book, you can try web searching those and if you can find pictures or a description you are looking for a left hand mount. Pictures of the ones I found before show the difference in the two mounts.

If it works out right it would be good if you could follow up with the outcome, you never know some else might run into the same thing in the future.

Good luck.
Jim

 

[Gilbert69]

Greetings from across the pond. I purchased the 963989M1 for my 165 mark iii which I keep in France and after much delay eventually arrived in France and have today tried to fit it. The good news is the mounting holes match. The bad news is the original starter has a cut out to fit around one of the transmission bolt heads. The replacement starter doesn’t and so does not fit. Attached are a couple of photos in case of interest. I’m not keen to remove the offending bolt so back to square one. It seems strange that the euoropean parts catalogue lists this starter as suitable for the mark iii. On a happy note, I fitted the original starter without much hope of it working given it didn’t the last time I tried it and the tractor has been idle for 9 months and to my amazement it started First time. Woohoo, happy days!

 

[John Deere D]

Greetings from across the pond. I purchased the 963989M1 for my 165 mark iii which I keep in France and after much delay eventually arrived in France and have today tried to fit it. The good news is the mounting holes match. The bad news is the original starter has a cut out to fit around one of the transmission bolt heads. The replacement starter doesn’t and so does not fit. Attached are a couple of photos in case of interest. I’m not keen to remove the offending bolt so back to square one. It seems strange that the euoropean parts catalogue lists this starter as suitable for the mark iii. On a happy note, I fitted the original starter without much hope of it working given it didn’t the last time I tried it and the tractor has been idle for 9 months and to my amazement it started First time. Woohoo, happy days!

There is a very high chance, that one or several of the electrical connections were not making adequate contact...now they are.

 

[Gilbert69]

A good point thank you. I’m intrigued to know why the new starter doesn’t fit though given that it is listed as suitable for this model. Perhaps I don’t have the A4.212 that I thought.

 

[John Deere D]

Good day....I have ordered parts "STARTER"with no idea of location of manufacturing for my 1963 MF 35 3 cylinder Perkins Diesel.
The mounting BOSS on the Transmission / Engine Adapter BOLT pattern did not match with the mounting HOLES in the Starter flange.
The reason,QUALITY CONTROL out side of NORTH AMERICA, for sure in some nations is deplorable! I had to dill two of the mounting holes on the starter flange out 5/8". And yes the starter has been is service for five plus years.
My neighbor had a similar problem......his new MF starter (Tractor is a MF 2??).
I had to remove the component off a new starter(exactly same problem as your new starter) and install the old component (mounting end off old Starter)and then install the new starter. The day as a parts swapper is long gone. Owner / Mechanics have to think outside the box.
New after market parts are often inferior.

 

[Caryc]

There is a very high chance, that one or several of the electrical connections were not making adequate contact...now they are.

That is exactly why one doesn't start replacing parts when one gets that dreaded "click". As you proved when you reinstalled the old starter, something just wasn't making a good ground. I've been through that myself.

A connection can look just fine but be bad. When you get that "click", you need to start taking each connection apart and clean them. I mean clean them with a file or sand paper. I had the "click" on my MF202 a month or so ago. I started cleaning connections but was getting no where. I finally found the bad connection. It was where the ground cable connected to the frame to ground the system. I finally had to remove the battery because with the batt in the machine, I couldn't even see the connection. That connection had worked loose.

DON'T JUST START CHANGING PARTS UNTIL YOU CHECK ALL YOUR CONNECTIONS. I mean that in a nice way.

 

[John Deere D]

A good point thank you. I’m intrigued to know why the new starter doesn’t fit though given that it is listed as suitable for this model. Perhaps I don’t have the A4.212 that I thought.

Quite possibly....QUALITY CONTROL out side of NORTH AMERICA, and Europe in some nations is deplorable! I had to drill two of the mounting holes on the starter flange out 5/8". And yes the starter has been is service for five plus years.

 

[Jim.ME]

That is exactly why one doesn't start replacing parts when one gets that dreaded "click". As you proved when you reinstalled the old starter, something just wasn't making a good ground. I've been through that myself.

A connection can look just fine but be bad. When you get that "click", you need to start taking each connection apart and clean them. I mean clean them with a file or sand paper. I had the "click" on my MF202 a month or so ago. I started cleaning connections but was getting no where. I finally found the bad connection. It was where the ground cable connected to the frame to ground the system. I finally had to remove the battery because with the batt in the machine, I couldn't even see the connection. That connection had worked loose.

DON'T JUST START CHANGING PARTS UNTIL YOU CHECK ALL YOUR CONNECTIONS. I mean that in a nice way.

Diagnosis is key. However, did you understand the tractor is in France, and he is in England and only has limited access time. It has had starter issues before and he wanted to have a starter with him when he got there as a backup plan as parts are not easily obtained?

 

[marlyman]

to my knowledge no one maes that starter any more. even vintage french expert parts supplier like la boutique de tracteur dont list it.