Gasoline start diesel run engine

[International454]

what are thoughts on these engines?
I have read they are prone to head cracking
Which is operator error
I also read spares are getting very difficult to source
Thanks for replies

 

[stdsch40]

I had a couple of International 400D's, gas start diesels about 10 years ago. One I bought off a fellow who didn't know how to start it, so it was cheap. After making proper adjustments all was well. I liked them. Problems were very few people could bother to start them properly, the gas tank didn't hold much fuel so always needed to be filled up. I had no cracked head issues at all. They ran great on diesel, very powerful. I traded mine in for a diesel with glow plugs (new tractor). If I could find another IH 400D in good running condition at the right price, I'd buy it. Finally, yes mostly operator error that ruins the gas start diesel. Be careful on what you buy, mine had the TA witched work fine, the switch over from gas to diesel has to be quick. Let me add the following: they are a complicated engine, carb, spark plugs, distributor, as well as diesel fuel pump, decompression, etc. These are before the days of glow plugs and big batteries. You have to appreciate the mechanics of the engine to enjoy them. They also take a long time to warm up on gas if its cold outside. In theory you are supposed to let them cool off by switching back to gas before shut off. The gasoline valves are prone to over heat too.

 

[stdsch40]

After a little more thought on the gas start diesels I had, this is what I recall.
They are/were a novel mechanical curiosity in their day. Being a mechanical engineer I didn't have too much of a problem with them. But I could see why plenty of farmers hated them, just to darn complicated. You couldn't drive them in gas mode, only start them. They were meant to work all day long, not useful as a utility tractor, were a person would start and stop a tractor many times in a day. In cold weather they would be a bear to start and easily take 15 to 20 minutes to warm up on gas before you could even switch to diesel. Everything had to be in tip top shape, very very unforgiving to poor maintenance. Every problem a gas engine has and every problem a diesel has all in one engine! Yikes! I believe they were a necessary mistake in the evolution of diesel engines. 'Someone had to try it' to prove it could be done but a mistake never the less. The idea just died. Collectors may praise them ie. the Farmall SMDTA came before the IH 400D and the 450D. The TA's were problematic too, mostly because of operator error. Plenty of 'cracked' heads too.
Now I'll wait to see what kind of flak I get in reply.

 

[Janicholson]

I was an owner of a 48 MD. I bought it for 150.00 US in 1996. It was likhtly stuck but with Liquid wrench poured down the exhaust, and daily tweaking the engine and positioning it down hill in 5th letting it hang there, I got it to turn. Running on gas was easy. getting it to switch required freeing the pump. Not tough. I ran it for 3 years and sold it (with a fabricated 3 Pt hitch) for 2000.00 in 1998. I thought it was a useful tractor and (as mentioned) not for start stop operation. Jim

 

[rustred]

After a little more thought on the gas start diesels I had, this is what I recall.
They are/were a novel mechanical curiosity in their day. Being a mechanical engineer I didn't have too much of a problem with them. But I could see why plenty of farmers hated them, just to darn complicated. You couldn't drive them in gas mode, only start them. They were meant to work all day long, not useful as a utility tractor, were a person would start and stop a tractor many times in a day. In cold weather they would be a bear to start and easily take 15 to 20 minutes to warm up on gas before you could even switch to diesel. Everything had to be in tip top shape, very very unforgiving to poor maintenance. Every problem a gas engine has and every problem a diesel has all in one engine! Yikes! I believe they were a necessary mistake in the evolution of diesel engines. 'Someone had to try it' to prove it could be done but a mistake never the less. The idea just died. Collectors may praise them ie. the Farmall SMDTA came before the IH 400D and the 450D. The TA's were problematic too, mostly because of operator error. Plenty of 'cracked' heads too.
Now I'll wait to see what kind of flak I get in reply.

way over exaggerated. and to cool them off you idle them on diesel not gas as thats where the valve warping comes from. plus a diesel idling cools off faster than on gas. once the engine is started on diesel thats where it stays. it was a very good idea for warming up a diesel engine back then. how else would you expect to start them? keep the starting fluid cans away and all was good.

 

[stdsch40]

I was an owner of a 48 MD. I bought it for 150.00 US in 1996. It was likhtly stuck but with Liquid wrench poured down the exhaust, and daily tweaking the engine and positioning it down hill in 5th letting it hang there, I got it to turn. Running on gas was easy. getting it to switch required freeing the pump. Not tough. I ran it for 3 years and sold it (with a fabricated 3 Pt hitch) for 2000.00 in 1998. I thought it was a useful tractor and (as mentioned) not for start stop operation. Jim

Another thing I remember about my IH 400D's. Even when the engine was nice and hot, if you stopped the engine, you always had to restart on gas. Just no way the starter could turn that engine over fast enough to direct start on diesel. The 1/2 gallon? gas tank was always needing to be refilled, and if just by chance you forgot to fill that tiny gas tank when you went to start the tractor and part way through you ran out of gas while warming up the engine, start all over again but this time go refill the tank.
I believe my 400D's were rated 40hp tractors. Mine were wheatland models, wide fronts. One had power steering. One was called a W400 the other a 400D. The local Case-IH dealer took them in trade for a new Farmall 40CVT, they said a collector wanted them.

 

[stdsch40]

way over exaggerated. and to cool them off you idle them on diesel not gas as thats where the valve warping comes from. plus a diesel idling cools off faster than on gas. once the engine is started on diesel thats where it stays. it was a very good idea for warming up a diesel engine back then. how else would you expect to start them? keep the starting fluid cans away and all was good.

I don't have the manual anymore but I believe it said to run them down on gas before shut off. I actually only did it twice. Mechanical marvels they were.

 

[used red MN]

Would the starter crank it at all on diesel? If the engine was warm enough could you get them to crank up on diesel at all? With the engine near running temperature if the starter wouldn’t crank it on diesel could you turn off the gas to the carb and then getting cranking on the lower compression gas setting and then throw it to diesel and start it?

 

[stdsch40]

Would the starter crank it at all on diesel? If the engine was warm enough could you get them to crank up on diesel at all? With the engine near running temperature if the starter wouldn’t crank it on diesel could you turn off the gas to the carb and then getting cranking on the lower compression gas setting and then throw it to diesel and start it?

From my memory, no, they could never direct start even when hot, on diesel. I believe the starter motor was too weak to turn the engine over fast enough. They always had to start on gas, get up to 1200rpm or thereabouts on gas then you had to quickly throw a lever which disengaged the gasoline engine valve train and closed the low compression valves. It needed the flywheel momentum. Like I said, mechanical marvels. Lots of valves in the head, at least 16 valves, 8 for diesel, 8 for gas and i'm not 100% sure but more valves for the compression chamber. That's at least partially why the heads were prone to cracking.
BTW, my old user name was 'Slowchokeoff'. If you do a search for 400D, 300U, W6, or W400D. There might be some pictures still.
You know...slow-choke-off.

 

[teddy52food]

From my memory, no, they could never direct start even when hot, on diesel. I believe the starter motor was too weak to turn the engine over fast enough. They always had to start on gas, get up to 1200rpm or thereabouts on gas then you had to quickly throw a lever which disengaged the gasoline engine valve train and closed the low compression valves. It needed the flywheel momentum. Like I said, mechanical marvels. Lots of valves in the head, at least 16 valves, 8 for diesel, 8 for gas and i'm not 100% sure but more valves for the compression chamber. That's at least partially why the heads were prone to cracking.
BTW, my old user name was 'Slowchokeoff'. If you do a search for 400D, 300U, W6, or W400D. There might be some pictures still.
You know...slow-choke-off.

All the heads I worked on had 3 valves per cylinder. Intake, Exaust and the small one to lower the compression for starting.

 

[stdsch40]

All the heads I worked on had 3 valves per cylinder. Intake, Exaust and the small one to lower the compression for starting.

Okay, thanks for correcting me on that. My memory was kinda hazy on how many valves per cylinder they had. I had forgotten how the compression chamber valves worked and whether the same exhaust valves worked for both gas and diesel. 12 valves total okay.

 

[used red MN]

From my memory, no, they could never direct start even when hot, on diesel. I believe the starter motor was too weak to turn the engine over fast enough. They always had to start on gas, get up to 1200rpm or thereabouts on gas then you had to quickly throw a lever which disengaged the gasoline engine valve train and closed the low compression valves. It needed the flywheel momentum. Like I said, mechanical marvels. Lots of valves in the head, at least 16 valves, 8 for diesel, 8 for gas and i'm not 100% sure but more valves for the compression chamber. That's at least partially why the heads were prone to cracking.
BTW, my old user name was 'Slowchokeoff'. If you do a search for 400D, 300U, W6, or W400D. There might be some pictures still.
You know...slow-choke-off.

Here is a refresher for you watch Pete’s video of him tearing down his MD after it dropped a valve sometime after he rebuilt. (watch at 12:20)
Pete pulls the MD head
There is only one set of extra valves as Teddy said, the gasoline start valves that open and stay held open during gasoline operation. These expose the chamber that lowers the compression ratio and has the spark plug in it. There is a set of butterflies in the intake manifold that close off the main air intake forcing air to be drawn through the carburetor for gas operation. When it switches to diesel and the butterflies open, the air way through the carburetor is not blocked but the air chooses to follow the path of least resistance through the main air way of the intake manifold. Since the switch to diesel also operates a mechanism that holds the carburetor float needle closed, if the tractor runs long enough the gas in the carb will evaporate slowly until gone mixing into the intake air stream.
Messicks Farmall 400D intake manifold diag

 

[stdsch40]

Here is a refresher for you watch Pete’s video of him tearing down his MD after it dropped a valve sometime after he rebuilt. (watch at 12:20)
Pete pulls the MD head
There is only one set of extra valves as Teddy said, the gasoline start valves that open and stay held open during gasoline operation. These expose the chamber that lowers the compression ratio and has the spark plug in it. There is a set of butterflies in the intake manifold that close off the main air intake forcing air to be drawn through the carburetor for gas operation. When it switches to diesel and the butterflies open, the air way through the carburetor is not blocked but the air chooses to follow the path of least resistance through the main air way of the intake manifold. Since the switch to diesel also operates a mechanism that holds the carburetor float needle closed, if the tractor runs long enough the gas in the carb will evaporate slowly until gone mixing into the intake air stream.
Messicks Farmall 400D intake manifold diag

For me its been 20 years since I worked on those antique tractors. So my memory is hazy on the mechanics. What I do remember was having to carefully adjust all the various linkages to get them to start and run properly. I still consider them a complex engine, but interesting. An owners manual would be imperative to operate and maintain those engines, when I sold those tractors the manual went with them. I'm the antique now. Funny thing for me is that electronic fuel injection seems simpler to deal with the older I get.

 

[caterpillar guy]

Our MD would start and run fine to pull the feeding wagon out to the feeders from the shed probably 100 feet or so . then change over to back up to the feeders and kick PTO in gear to unload feed. It would start when almost nothing else would in the winter. And at that time the 80's we had some -20 F nights to start in. It was started at least 4 times a day. Once to feed in the morning again after it was filled for the day and again to put it away in the shed then night to feed. And no it would not turn the engine over with the starter even warmed up and definitely not to start. Only would turn the engine on The Gas setting to start. I don't know if we did it right or not but it worked for us with no cracked head just was heavy in the front end so not very good for working in wet ground like tillage or spreading manure with. Ours would not even turn over just more of a grunt like a dead battery on diesel. there was no cranking it to me just could not turn it over. Seemed like it would shear the pin on the crank shaft if you pulled that hard on the crank. This was trying with an H crank. Don't know if there was a different crank for the MD. If it would not start on the starter we just dragged it to start. IT will start cold on diesel fuel first if you drag it a bit in summer. Never tried it in winter cold. If they set for a long time they would stick the change over valves on them then would miss on diesel sometimes till you pulled the head and freed them up sometimes they would free up on their own. When we got ours it would miss terrible all the time. Finally one day we had lots of manure to haul and so we put a cover over the grille so it would warm up a wee bit more and run it hard all day it finally went to hitting on that cylinder by the end of that day. Did a lot5 of work to that tractor and used it a lot. It was cheap to run on fuel so it set on the dryer all fall. then would get feed grinder and feeding wagon all winter. I want to get it out and run on augers again this fall. IT would be good for that since it ran cheap and has a bit more than the H for auger work. We can load out with the 10 x40 auger with the H and it runs it fine but with the 674 on the auger I can pull the slide all the way out on an 8 inch load out bin auger. H runs it fine but must have a slower PTO speed to it. Runs wot with out pulling down to hear.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

I wouldn't let those concerns deter you if you want to add one to your collection. Just be choosy about the one you buy, and you won't have to touch it.

If your plan is to work it hard and put hundreds of hours a year on it, you might want to invest in a gas version to supplement it, but if all you want to do with it is make a few rounds with a plow at plow day, or rake a few acres of hay, you'll never wear it out. You'll note that Pete from Just a Few Acres Farm only brings that MD out a few times a year. He has other tractors to share the load.

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

I think the start on gas diesels are a really cool idea that I wouldn't waste time or a dime on.

Perkins made some really nice starting, fuel efficient diesels. Same with Cummins.

Mike

 

[560Dennis]

They are 75 plus years old. Prone to anything do prior to poor main. , Be prepared to find what you find .
whats your budget,and tractor use ?
ask far as my friend has one. His head was fixed in Cleveland at a shop that specializes in that .
cranks can be welded and reground.
you decide, Got to a want a good project I think something you can say told ya I could get it going!

 

[Fritz Maurer]

I don't know about taking 15 minutes to warm up but we definitely waited 15 minutes of idling before shutdown after a day's work...they had a reputation but we never had any trouble.

I also find it strange that the four-cylinders won't crank on Diesel. The compression ratio is what, 4 or 5 to 1 on gasoline? Why then put that huge starter on it instead of an ordinary 12V starter, if it was not intended to crank on high compression? Conversely, the TD18 and TD24 can be started on high compression. There is actual footage of it on the movie HUD

 

[stdsch40]

I don't know about taking 15 minutes to warm up but we definitely waited 15 minutes of idling before shutdown after a day's work...they had a reputation but we never had any trouble.

I also find it strange that the four-cylinders won't crank on Diesel. The compression ratio is what, 4 or 5 to 1 on gasoline? Why then put that huge starter on it instead of an ordinary 12V starter, if it was not intended to crank on high compression? Conversely, the TD18 and TD24 can be started on high compression. There is actual footage of it on the movie HUD

Maybe I'm exaggerating slightly on the 15 minutes to warm up, could have been 12 minutes. Lots of cast iron in those engines, took a long time in the winter to get them warm for compression ignition (diesel) to work. And just to be clear, no they could not restart directly on diesel, I tried that many a time in vain. I suspected the starter motor was just too weak and the battery could not sustain the amperage draw long enough while cranking. If others who own these tractors have a different recollection I'd like to hear about that. I'll gladly eat crow if I'm wrong.
1956 International W400D, s/n 3375-8 20163 with semi mount JD 38 mower approx 2003.

 

[jwal10]

Dad had an H and an M and when it came time to get his first Diesel wheel tractor he got a 400 Case. He had a TD-9 bulldozer and had problems with cracked heads pushing stumps. Seemed the head wasn't cooled good (right) on hills, in and out of stump holes. Wouldn't show up on temp gauge as overly hot. He was very careful about plenty of idle time to cool down before shutting off. He was never a fan of the gas start engines. He had a 801 and a 830 Case before going back to IHC after the 706 diesel Farmall came out. The Cases were easier starting than the 706, IHC took more upkeep on the glow plugs to keep it starting it's best. He also had a IHC 504 diesel, it was even harder starting than the 706....James