International Diesel Engine Help.

[Jdayf]

Good Evening Everyone,
First time poster on this site, long time looker. I am looking for some troubleshooting help, or just to see if I’m on the right track with figuring out an issue with my tractor. I have a 76 International 364 with the BD 154 diesel engine. I’ve owned the tractor for two years now and haven’t had any issues with it, ran good and just performed the regular maintenance on it. This is also the first diesel tractor I’ve owned. It is tired, I don’t push it hard, it’s an handy tractor with a bucket and I figured it will be a good project for me and my sons to rebuild and restore eventually. So what happened is two weeks ago I was using the tractor for grading my driveway. All of the sudden it started sputtering, popping and smoking. The smoke was grayish in color and smelled rich of diesel. I pulled the hood and panels off. Started the tractor and observed a ton of air bubbles in the return lines back to the fuel tank. I figured I have a leak somewhere. So I inspected the fuel lines and found a small leak at the fuel shut off and tightened it. Bled the system and restarted the tractor and it’s still smoking popping and sputtering. I then had the thought, maybe the cheapBay mechanical lift pump diaphragm failed allowing crank case pressure into the fuel system, as there is a lot of air bubbles in the return lines. I also noticed the fuel shut off was weeping diesel again. So my next step was a trip to Napa for an electric fuel pump, and some fuel line. I pulled the mechanical pump out. Took a small piece of flat stock, made a plate for the engine block. Installed a new fuel tank shut off, installed a electric diesel lift pump and new fuel lines from tank to pump to filter. While I was at it changed the fuel filter and filter gaskets. Turned the fuel back on and bled the system. Started the tractor and cracked each injector to make sure there was diesel and no air, but I am still having the same issue, popping, sputtering, and smoking. One thing I did notice is after idling for a couple of minutes the engine did smooth out, stopped smoking, and sounded normal. There was still some air bubbles in the return lines. But when you throttle up, say 1500 rpm’s, the sputtering and smoking returns. I believe I solved any issues on the low pressure side and now I think the issue is on the high pressure between the injector pump and injectors. One thing I noticed is the amount of air coming out of the first injector ( front of engine) fuel return. Could it be possible a seal is bad or needle stuck in the first injector? I was thinking of switching the 1st with the 4th injector just to see if the air bubbles clear up and start at the last injector just to narrow it to injector or another issue all together. Couple bits of information, the injectors are old, age unknown. The guy I bought it from had the injector pump replaced. Pump was brand new, not rebuilt and is about two years old. It was installed by a diesel mechanic. The Diesel is 3 weeks old. I’ve been using it out of a transfer tank. Bought it at a high volume gas station. The diesel is been used in diesel salamander heaters and a generator with out issues. Tractor is parked inside, so no water issues entering in the fuel. Sorry this post is long winded, but I tried to give as much information and what I have done and tested so far as I know it helps in the troubleshooting process. So what do you all think? Am I on the right track with my troubleshooting process or did I miss something. I appreciate your time for reading this post and any advice or tips would be welcomed and appreciated. I have a busy rest of the work week, but looking forward to taking another crack at the tractor this weekend. Thank you in advance for your reply’s.

 

[JimB2]

You can crack one injector line at a time(just like removing 1 spark plug wire at a time) and see if it is related to one injector.
Remove Rad cap and check for low coolant or bubbles when running. I assumed you checked crank case oil level for being diluted with Diesel.
Make sure the SHUT OFF lever is working properly, pushing lever against STOP screw on top of injection pump.
Check the air filter and hose for obstructions.
Air in the fuel line will cause the engine to surge up and down. Could also be a blown head gasket between cylinders.
The BD-154 is a very ruggit engine.

 

[used red MN]

One thing I noticed is the amount of air coming out of the first injector ( front of engine) fuel return. Could it be possible a seal is bad or needle stuck in the first injector? I was thinking of switching the 1st with the 4th injector just to see if the air bubbles clear up and start at the last injector just to narrow it to injector or another issue all together.

Hello Jdayf, welcome to YT! Yes injector internal seats and poppets can fail in such a way that compression is pushed back into not the fuel injector line and possibly the pump. I’m not sure how common this is on the design of injectors your engine has, there is a member of these forums who runs a diesel injection repair shop posting as Dieseltech who would be able to answer that question, he may very well chime in.
Diagnosing cylinder to cylinder performance by loosening the injector lines while the engine is running as Jim mentioned could also indicate which injector might be the problem. Also moving injectors cylinder to cylinder is a way to verify if the problem is an injector or a mechanical engine problem. One test you could do would be to disconnect all the injectors. This test will be a little more difficult with the style of injectors you have. The purpose is to check to see if compression is coming out of any of the injectors. Many line connections to injectors face up and when you remove the injector nut and line a small amount of fuel stays in the injector inlet. On that type of injector you simply crank the engine and watch to see if the remaining fuel in the injector has air bubbling up in it or is being pushed out. If that happens the injector is leaking compression by it which shouldn’t happen. In you case since the connections are horizontal you will need to dip your finger in motor oil or 90W gear oil and hold it against the inlet seats to see if pressure pushes out against your finger bubbling the oil seal. Make sure the fuel control on the pump is in the stop position when you do this.
Also more for information or knowledge. The manual camshaft driven fuel pump may introduce air into a fuel system. However, the air or pressure is not from crankcase pressure. Crankcase pressure should be very low because if all is right it is vented through an open tube on then side of the engine. Stroking type mechanical fuel pumps use diaphragms in them. The push/pull pulsing on a failed or leaking diaphragm is usually how the air is introduced not from “pressure” in the engine. A more common failure is leaky diaphragms passing fuel into the crankcase and engine oil.
Do you have service manuals for your tractor? If not I highly suggest you acquire some.

 

[Mrfred54]

So where exactly are you seeing air bubbles. The return line from the injection pump to the filter or the return line from the top of the injectors to the line that goes to the filter. I believe on your model tractor the return line from the injectors does not go back to the tank, instead is connected to the fuel feed line from the tank to the filter. How is it that you can see air bubbles. Do you have a clear fuel line on the return fuel lines?? Was thinking the return line on your injectors is a braided line with the little hollow bolts on top of the injectors. Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong model tractor

 

[Jdayf]

You can crack one injector line at a time(just like removing 1 spark plug wire at a time) and see if it is related to one injector.
Remove Rad cap and check for low coolant or bubbles when running. I assumed you checked crank case oil level for being diluted with Diesel.
Make sure the SHUT OFF lever is working properly, pushing lever against STOP screw on top of injection pump.
Check the air filter and hose for obstructions.
Air in the fuel line will cause the engine to surge up and down. Could also be a blown head gasket between cylinders.
The BD-154 is a very ruggit engine.

Thank you for the reply, the good thing is the radiator is still full, and the engine “ hasn’t made any extra oil”. But yes I did check for dilution. Thanks for the tip on the radiator, I’ll open the cap when i start it and check for bubbles or air. Shut off lever is in good working order, and I have a thick rubber square piece near by to block the intake in case of a runaway condition.

 

[Jdayf]

Hello Jdayf, welcome to YT! Yes injector internal seats and poppets can fail in such a way that compression is pushed back into not the fuel injector line and possibly the pump. I’m not sure how common this is on the design of injectors your engine has, there is a member of these forums who runs a diesel injection repair shop posting as Dieseltech who would be able to answer that question, he may very well chime in.
Diagnosing cylinder to cylinder performance by loosening the injector lines while the engine is running as Jim mentioned could also indicate which injector might be the problem. Also moving injectors cylinder to cylinder is a way to verify if the problem is an injector or a mechanical engine problem. One test you could do would be to disconnect all the injectors. This test will be a little more difficult with the style of injectors you have. The purpose is to check to see if compression is coming out of any of the injectors. Many line connections to injectors face up and when you remove the injector nut and line a small amount of fuel stays in the injector inlet. On that type of injector you simply crank the engine and watch to see if the remaining fuel in the injector has air bubbling up in it or is being pushed out. If that happens the injector is leaking compression by it which shouldn’t happen. In you case since the connections are horizontal you will need to dip your finger in motor oil or 90W gear oil and hold it against the inlet seats to see if pressure pushes out against your finger bubbling the oil seal. Make sure the fuel control on the pump is in the stop position when you do this.
Also more for information or knowledge. The manual camshaft driven fuel pump may introduce air into a fuel system. However, the air or pressure is not from crankcase pressure. Crankcase pressure should be very low because if all is right it is vented through an open tube on then side of the engine. Stroking type mechanical fuel pumps use diaphragms in them. The push/pull pulsing on a failed or leaking diaphragm is usually how the air is introduced not from “pressure” in the engine. A more common failure is leaky diaphragms passing fuel into the crankcase and engine oil.
Do you have service manuals for your tractor? If not I highly suggest you acquire some.

Thanks for the information. I’m going to pull the lines over the weekend. Thank you for the tip on motor oil on the injector inlets. Yes they are horizontal. I am a pipe fitter by trade and we have a soapy solution we use to find leaks on piping when pressure testing. I might use a little dab of that, it doesn’t take much and it will bubble at the smallest of leaks. As for the fuel pump thank you for your explanation on it. That makes a lot of sense, I would have had more of an issue with fuel dilution vs air. I did end up out of curiosity pulling the pump apart and at least with my naked eye I didn’t see an issue with the diaphragm, probably wasn’t an issue to begin with. Yes I have the service, owners, engine and parts manuals for the tractor.

 

[Jdayf]

So where exactly are you seeing air bubbles. The return line from the injection pump to the filter or the return line from the top of the injectors to the line that goes to the filter. I believe on your model tractor the return line from the injectors does not go back to the tank, instead is connected to the fuel feed line from the tank to the filter. How is it that you can see air bubbles. Do you have a clear fuel line on the return fuel lines?? Was thinking the return line on your injectors is a braided line with the little hollow bolts on top of the injectors. Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong model tractor

Good Afternoon,
I am seeing the bubbles on the fuel returns off the top of the injectors. They might have been steel braided lines at one point in time but now they are clear tubing, at least that’s the way they are when I acquired the tractor. They are attached with a banjo style barbed fitting, And they are all tied together and go into the top of the fuel tank.

 

[Jdayf]

Thank you all for the information so far and different ideas to try on the tractor this weekend. If it’s any help, I’m attaching a few photos of my injectors, the fuel returns and a picture of the injector pump. I’m going to pull the injector lines and dab some oil on my finger and see if I get bubbles while cranking. I’ll switch a couple around and start it and watch the coolant and see if I get any bubbles in the radiator.

 

[Jdayf]

Good Evening Everyone,
Had some time to mess with the tractor after work tonight. Figured out a couple things tonight. First I opened the radiator cap and started the tractor. With the tractor running, I observed the coolant and did not see any bubbles in the radiator. I decided to crack each injector. The first injector ( the one I’m having a problem with, had a bunch of air bubbles still and a little bit of fuel, the remaining 3 had straight diesel with no air. I then traced the first injector line back to the injection pump, and noticed when I crack the nut directly at the pump, I get foamy bubbles and diesel right at the pump. Remaining 3 are diesel. Now I don’t think it’s a problem with the injectors. I think there is an issue with the injection pump, possibly a seal that failed internally.
I’m just wondering what your thoughts are on that. Also I was thinking of re sealing the pump. I looked at an exploded diagram in the international parts manual and it doesn’t look any more difficult than rebuilding a hydraulic pump. Has anyone resealed one of these Delphi Cav pumps? Any thing to watch out for or your experiences? I can get a reseal kit for about $75 bucks, or send it for a rebuild. Tomorrow I also want to test each injector with a dab of oil on my finger just to make sure there is no leaks there as suggested.
Thanks Again for taking the time to read this and your thoughts and suggestions.

 

[used red MN]

Good Evening Everyone,
Had some time to mess with the tractor after work tonight. Figured out a couple things tonight. First I opened the radiator cap and started the tractor. With the tractor running, I observed the coolant and did not see any bubbles in the radiator. I decided to crack each injector. The first injector ( the one I’m having a problem with, had a bunch of air bubbles still and a little bit of fuel, the remaining 3 had straight diesel with no air. I then traced the first injector line back to the injection pump, and noticed when I crack the nut directly at the pump, I get foamy bubbles and diesel right at the pump. Remaining 3 are diesel. Now I don’t think it’s a problem with the injectors. I think there is an issue with the injection pump, possibly a seal that failed internally.
I’m just wondering what your thoughts are on that. Also I was thinking of re sealing the pump. I looked at an exploded diagram in the international parts manual and it doesn’t look any more difficult than rebuilding a hydraulic pump. Has anyone resealed one of these Delphi Cav pumps? Any thing to watch out for or your experiences? I can get a reseal kit for about $75 bucks, or send it for a rebuild. Tomorrow I also want to test each injector with a dab of oil on my finger just to make sure there is no leaks there as suggested.
Thanks Again for taking the time to read this and your thoughts and suggestions.

It would be nice to know if the supply of fuel coming into the pump is absolutely free of air. I am not sure if that connection above the filters to the return constantly bleeds of fuel and if so bring on the top it would have air coming out there with the fuel. If that is so and air is not coming out there in that clear line that would probably confirm that your pump’s fuel supply is air free.
Secondly, if your test shows no compression seems to coming out of the injectors then this all would seem to point to the problem injection pump. In that case I would strongly suggest that the pump be looked at by a professional who has access to a test stand to make sure all is well when it is finished. Member @Dieseltech as mentioned above is known to do good work at very reasonable rates. (the @ will alert him that I mentioned him) Many here ship their pumps to him for repair, he is in Indiana.
One last thing, this would not explain why your problem came on all of a sudden. I see you have a Wix filter on there. I’m not sure if this applies to your application the one I am most aware of is the two filter primary and secondary side by side setup. There is a know design of some Wix filters that causes a problem when an extra oring is mistakenly installed. Here is a link to an older YT thread that explains this.
Previous YT thread on Wix/NAPA fuel filters

 

[Jdayf]

It would be nice to know if the supply of fuel coming into the pump is absolutely free of air. I am not sure if that connection above the filters to the return constantly bleeds of fuel and if so bring on the top it would have air coming out there with the fuel. If that is so and air is not coming out there in that clear line that would probably confirm that your pump’s fuel supply is air free.
Secondly, if your test shows no compression seems to coming out of the injectors then this all would seem to point to the problem injection pump. In that case I would strongly suggest that the pump be looked at by a professional who has access to a test stand to make sure all is well when it is finished. Member @Dieseltech as mentioned above is known to do good work at very reasonable rates. (the @ will alert him that I mentioned him) Many here ship their pumps to him for repair, he is in Indiana.
One last thing, this would not explain why your problem came on all of a sudden. I see you have a Wix filter on there. I’m not sure if this applies to your application the one I am most aware of is the two filter primary and secondary side by side setup. There is a know design of some Wix filters that causes a problem when an extra oring is mistakenly installed. Here is a link to an older YT thread that explains this.
Previous YT thread on Wix/NAPA fuel filters

Good Evening,
Thank you for the reply,
So tonight I did check fuel flow and I have fuel to pump free of air, at least when I crack the inlet fitting to the injection pump it’s diesel with no air bubbles. Also the clear return line on the top of the fuel filter has no air bubbles, but all the air bubbles come up the tee branch from the first injector. Also you’re right on the filter housing. In my service manual it shows a dual fuel filter /water separator set up. At some point in time someone must of changed the filter housing. As far as the WIX filter, the top gasket was put into the groove on the under side of the filter housing and the second one was installed in the bottom cap and then the small o rings on the bolt, third gasket is with my spares. Top of filter shouldn’t be blocked, Thank you for that article it’s good information. I live in Ohio and Indiana is right next door to me, I’d be interested in dieseltechs thoughts and be more than happy to ship it.
Thanks Again

 

[JimB2]

Did you bleed the Top bleed screw on the injection pump as the tractor will start by only bleeding the lower bleed screw.

 

[Jdayf]

Did you bleed the Top bleed screw on the injection pump as the tractor will start by only bleeding the lower bleed screw.

No, only did the lower one.

 

[Powered By IH]

No, only did the lower one.

Do the top one too. It will take a bit but it bleeds out the governor housing and will make sure the injection pump is completely bled.
It can be bled with engine running or engine off.

 

[Jdayf]

Do the top one too. It will take a bit but it bleeds out the governor housing and will make sure the injection pump is completely bled.
It can be bled with engine running or engine off.

Will do. Thank You

 

[Jdayf]

Good Afternoon,
I spent some time with the tractor and tried the top bleeding screw with the engine off. I cracked it open and it took a little bit but I had a bunch of air bubbles come out of it. I bled it until I had a steady stream of diesel. I then restarted the tractor and it smoked and sputtered but then cleared up for a brief moment and sounded normal. Then it started sputtering and smoking again. I then while it was running cracked that top bleeder screw and I had foamy air bubble diesel again. I cracked the line to the first injector at the pump and it’s a bunch of air with alittle diesel. I played around with it for a half hour or so, and can’t seem to get the air out of the system. Here is a pic I’ve taken of the nut at the first injector line on the pump, it’s full of air every time. I went through and rechecked all nuts and banjo fittings for tightness. So at this point I’m leaning towards a issue with the injection pump.

 

[Dieseltech]

if that engine has a feed/supply pump MAKE SURE it's working right or that injection pump WILL never work right. CAV DPA pumps DO NOT handle ANY air well that gets into the inlet port.

 

[Jdayf]

if that engine has a feed/supply pump MAKE SURE it's working right or that injection pump WILL never work right. CAV DPA pumps DO NOT handle ANY air well that gets into the inlet port.

Yes Sir. Had this issue all of a sudden two weeks ago while grading my driveway. The tractor just started sputtering and smoking smelling very rich with diesel. I’ve had it for two years with no problems. I did find a small diesel leak at the fuel tank shut off. I tried tightening the fitting and it was still weeping. I ended up replacing the fuel tank shut off and installed new fuel line to lift pump, new lift pump and new fuel line to filter. The guys have been great on this form with help and things to try and I’ve bled this thing out and it’s still producing air. The pic is the injector line to the first injector that has all the air. What would the symptoms of a failed seal be in the injection pump?

 

[Jim.ME]

If the air is always in the #1 injector, could the injector have failed and be letting compression back into the fuel system? When it is running if you crack the other injector lines loose one at a time can you hear a difference when one of those lines are loose (leaking) and it picks back up when tightened?

Please be careful around an operating fuel system. High pressure fuel can be bad, even fatal, if injected under the skin.

 

[Jdayf]

If the air is always in the #1 injector, could the injector have failed and be letting compression back into the fuel system? When it is running if you crack the other injector lines loose one at a time can you hear a difference when one of those lines are loose (leaking) and it picks back up when tightened?

Please be careful around an operating fuel system. High pressure fuel can be bad, even fatal, if injected under the skin.

Good Afternoon thanks for the reply, with your advice and the advice of other members I pulled all lines off the injectors and put a dab of soapy solution on my finger and put my finger over the inlet of the injector. I had my son crank the motor and I felt pressure on my finger and it bubbled. The other three injectors I didn’t feel pressure or bubbles. So it looks like an internal seal went in that injector? It would make sense that the air would travel through the lines.