Farmall Super M Hydraulic Problems

[Farmall Farmer]

I have a 1952 Farmall Super M with a two-way M&W hydraulic pump and factory Lift-All belly pump. The M&W valve has a hose that comes from the belly pump, but the M&W pump has hoses going into the bottom of the belly pump, so having two pumps doesn't make sense unless the factory belly pump is only a reservoir for the M&W pump. I'm having problems with it holding pressure, whatever implement I have it hooked up to it will raise up fine but slowly lose pressure and drops the implement back down. This applies to the single way fittings from the belly pump and the M&W valve. I am currently using a Gehl 207 9-wheel rake with single way hydraulics, it will pick it up, but it won't hold its position and drop down. I am running the single way cylinder on the rake with one of the two-way hoses from the M&W valve (which technically should work). Any help figuring out what is causing by-pass in the pump would be appreciated.

 

[Farmall Farmer]

Something I forgot to mention, when you pull the belly pump lever it lifts and lowers the cylinder connected to the two-way hoses. Now if you pull the pull the M&W valve rod back it stops the cylinder from lowering anymore, but if you let go it drops down. I know most M&W pumps require the belly pump rod always pulled back to work the valve but if I do that the implement cylinder raises no matter what. When I bought it the M&W valve was rusted and wouldn't move forward or back, I was able to get it moving freely, but could that be allowing pressure to by-pass the valve and go to the return?

 

[used red MN]

The M&W valve has a hose that comes from the belly pump, but the M&W pump has hoses going into the bottom of the belly pump, so having two pumps doesn't make sense unless the factory belly pump is only a reservoir for the M&W pump.

Hello Farmall Farmer, welcome to YT! I need a better photo of the connection of this hose in the photo. Apparently your belly pump has been modified to receive pressure into its internal passages from the live M&W pump. I have never see this before.
Also do you or maybe a neighbor have another tractor to try the rake on to see if it holds on that tractor?

 

[D Slater]

M&W made one setup that driveshaft driving the belly pump was removed along with gears in pump and the suction of internal pump housing was plugged. Pressure line went to a piece in drive hole. Designed to work like a regular lftall except hydraulics didn't stop when wheels did unless shift into neutral. That two way valve is like IH used, they called it a remote control valve. If original checks in belly unit are still working in the side ports only let pressure back in housing if belly unit lever is pushed forward. Lift pulled back. Rear left port has a different check than other two side ports. Two way valve pressure port should go to a side port. Valve is pressured when liftall rod is locked back. Using one of the valve lines doesn't work the best unless other line can flow to reservoir. Those valves usually have spool leakage and will settle implements. Valve needs locked and hoses on it not open when using belly unit. If checks are good in belly unit use a hose from port on side for implement. If very heavy may be a little hard to push when lowing. Information depends on you having the above.

 

[used red MN]

M&W made one setup that driveshaft driving the belly pump was removed along with gears in pump and the suction of internal pump housing was plugged. Pressure line went to a piece in drive hole. Designed to work like a regular lftall except hydraulics didn't stop when wheels did unless shift into neutral.

Thanks “D”! Did they use the original belly pump relief valve or does that M&W pump have an internal relief?

 

[D Slater]

Thanks “D”! Did they use the original belly pump relief valve or does that M&W pump have an internal relief?

Used the belly pump relief. Pressure was advertised lower than other M&W systems but little more than standard liftal if I remember correctly.

 

[Farmall Farmer]

I just went out and tested something I thought of earlier, in the picture the M&W valve was fed off of the right belly pump outlet/elbow, and I had the single way tee-d into the same outlet as the M&W valve. I was able to keep the cylinder pressure holding by switching the hose over to the left side hydraulic outlet (that does not feed the M&W valve) and it seems to be holding pressure. The reason the M&W valve was rusted is because the guy I bought it from had no hydraulic oil in it because he never used the hydraulics and the cover for the top of the valve doesn't have a gasket, so it allowed moisture into the valve cover and seized it. I think the valve was allowing by-pass because it was rusted and when I got it free it ruined the seal.

 

[used red MN]

I just went out and tested something I thought of earlier, in the picture the M&W valve was fed off of the right belly pump outlet/elbow, and I had the single way tee-d into the same outlet as the M&W valve. I was able to keep the cylinder pressure holding by switching the hose over to the left side hydraulic outlet (that does not feed the M&W valve) and it seems to be holding pressure. The reason the M&W valve was rusted is because the guy I bought it from had no hydraulic oil in it because he never used the hydraulics and the cover for the top of the valve doesn't have a gasket, so it allowed moisture into the valve cover and seized it. I think the valve was allowing by-pass because it was rusted and when I got it free it ruined the seal.

If you want/need dual action hydraulics you could replace that valve with any type of double action valve from a hydraulic placed like Surplus Center in NE. A valve good do 12 GPM would work. Or you could take a chance and find a used “Christmas tree” valve like you have.
Don’t want to throw rocks at your tractor, but does it have disc brakes, round castings with 5 bolts? That makes it a “Super” M, pressed pan covers on brakes means it’s a regular M with band brakes.

 

[D Slater]

Found a picture, was wrong about pressure it was GPM lower.