1841 nose medallion fr. Dennis Carpenter: design flaw??

[DennisT]

We got the new clutch, repaired hydraulic tank repair, etc., finished on my 1958 Ford 1841 Industrial. Cast iron nose is all painted up really nice. Lots of other work to do ahead, but I was so happy about nose appearance I knew I needed a new nose medallion so looked at the recommended reproduction from Dennis Carpenter. I couldn't really afford the $77 shipped price, but gosh, it's Christmas right? I ordered it.

Salesman said I didn't need a new mounting bracket. Medallion arrived. Absolutely drop-dead gorgeous !!! I had been told that Carpenter changed the design to elimenate Ford's mistake of having two Phillips screws mount it from the front because that is where moisture entered and eventually killed the originals. So Carpenter's repro has a solid front and two pegs on the back for mounting. Pegs are steel with no threads. In package are two little spring metal tabs, punched in the center leaving bent inner tips that will, "go on," but resist removel, (they dig into the metal-that's how they hold)

Here, I believe, is a MAJOR problem with Carpenter's design: How does anyone get their hand inside the cast nose to push these #$**@& clips on??????

Removing the center nose cast grill is fine, but the hydraulic reservoir prevents reaching up from the bottom. Headlights must be in place first' can't reach from there. One can, "almost," reach in from the back, across the hydraulic tank, but not enough to deal with the clips.

AND, if I can even install this thing, what if I need to replace a headlight? Ford manual says remove the two Phillips medallion screws, remove medallion and adjust or replace headlight.

I've dealt with these spring clips before. They are often used as cheap attachments for automobile trim, badges, etc. They usually distort when removed if they don't damage the mounting stud of the item trying to be saved.

I emailed Dennis Carpenter. He emailed right back telling me to call them and ask for Jimmy in the tractor department. Jimmy was very nice but admitted he'd never installed one. I asked about threading the studs. He said take it to a machine shop for that. I gently tried a threading die, but the stud material is of an inexpensive quality and merely gauls. I stopped before damaging anything. So Carpenter has no answers.

I hope one of you can tell me I'm missing something. ????????????????????????

From the front, this is a beautiful item.....if it can be used.....

Thanks for reading such a long post.

Dennis Thompson, frustrated...
E WA state

 

[souNdguy]

thread the inside of the stud for a machine screw like a 8 0r 10 32 leave a stud out and then nut it. if it's a cheap zinc aluminum allow you may not even need to thread it.. just screw the shannk in with a nut on it.. clip the head then remove the nut to clean the shank at the clipping.

use a washer unde the nuts.. etc..

 

[larryloy-]

Go to good hardware store and get the spring clips with hex heads----before you put it on-- put the clips on to cut the treads----i have four of the HD Industrials---just be careful and make sure you don't break the studs off

 

[DennisT]

Thank you for both ideas. Yes, the stud metal is too poor a quality to thread. And they are spot welded to the metal backing plate of the medallion so it's not like they can be easily removed and something else put in there.

I'd thought of getting tin hex quick nuts and that is actually a good idea. However if I did, and, "pre-threaded," them, I still cannot get my hand in the tractor nose to put them on.

I'd dearly love to be proven wrong, but so far this seems to be a beautiful product with NO way to install it.

Dennis

 

[awhtx]

My 1965 Mustang uses some sheet metal hex nuts that are very similar to those push on sheet metal tabs that came with your medallion. I believe you could screw those onto the medallion studs and they would cut their own threads as they go on. DC probably sells them in one of their old Ford car/truck catalogs.

 

[souNdguy]

spot welded? then they likely aren't aluminum zin alloy

even if soft, you should still be able to thread a screw into it.

I thread crap metals such as zinc allow and alumin often. can be done.. just have to use patience.

 

[leonard franks]

Google barrel clip. you buy them buy hole size and your emblem pushes through and is held in place by small fingers and is easy to remove

Leonard

 

[larryloy-]

Take grill out and come in from bottom

 

[DennisT]

Larry, that was my very first idea. Until I reached in there and realized the hydraulic tank completely blocked any possibility of doing it.

So far, the only chance I see at all is having the top sheet metal off and reaching through, on top, from the back. I can stick my hand through there now, but not sure I can get a grip on whatever nut I use for the lower stud.

That's the whole problem: NO interior access.

Dennis

 

[NWMO 901 SOS]

(quoted from post at 21:05:40 12/03/11) Larry, that was my very first idea. Until I reached in there and realized the hydraulic tank completely blocked any possibility of doing it.

So far, the only chance I see at all is having the top sheet metal off and reaching through, on top, from the back. I can stick my hand through there now, but not sure I can get a grip on whatever nut I use for the lower stud.

That's the whole problem: NO interior access.

Dennis

Dennis,

Don't know if this is a possibility or not. It may require finding a real small toggle nut or drilling the holes a little larger, but may work. Just thought I would throw it out there.

Chris

 

[DennisT]

Chris:

Good, clever idea. You must have been around one of these tractors and remember the two screws that go in the medallion from the front.

The problem is, Dennis Carpenter eleminated the holes that went clear through the medallion. Good idea on his part in that it prevents the Ford trouble of water getting in there and subsequently between the plastic and metal backing plate. But now his new idea must be installed/fastened entirely from the back.

I'm still scratching my head on this one.

 

[NWMO 901 SOS]

(quoted from post at 19:45:52 12/04/11) Chris:

Good, clever idea. You must have been around one of these tractors and remember the two screws that go in the medallion from the front.

The problem is, Dennis Carpenter eleminated the holes that went clear through the medallion. Good idea on his part in that it prevents the Ford trouble of water getting in there and subsequently between the plastic and metal backing plate. But now his new idea must be installed/fastened entirely from the back.

I'm still scratching my head on this one.

Sorry Dennis,

I had read your post, but forgot about the holes not going all the way through. My next thought would be non-mechanical, say an adhesive like silicone. Stout enough to do the job and stays pliable enough you can likely pry the part off if necessary, clean up and go again. The best part with a pliable adhesive is you stay away from the backside altogether.

Chris

 

[DennisT]

Chris:

Ha. Adhesive might be the best idea yet ! Never even thought of it. Sure too bad if that's the way it ends up, but the aftermarket folks don't always cover all their bases.

Outside of this last idea of yours, I was thinking of the suggestion of using barrel connectors.

Thanks; that might save me.

Dennis - too cold to work on the Ford right now anyway. Good time for homework on it.....

 

[john_Bud]

(quoted from post at 19:05:40 12/03/11) Larry, that was my very first idea. Until I reached in there and realized the hydraulic tank completely blocked any possibility of doing it.

So far, the only chance I see at all is having the top sheet metal off and reaching through, on top, from the back. I can stick my hand through there now, but not sure I can get a grip on whatever nut I use for the lower stud.

That's the whole problem: NO interior access.

Dennis

I'm confused. Isn't there is a ton of room after you take the front grill off. ??

It's like 9x12" -- ?

 

[DennisT]

Thanks, John:
Great photo you put up. I have a question about it too.... That nose of yours is from an Industrial later than my 1958. Color change and the medallion says, "Industrial." My nearly-shattered, original medallion is the, "wheat," version, which Tony Jacobs says was, indeed, used for the first couple years of 1841's.

Your medallion appears to be near new and I cannot see any Phillips screws from the front. Is that an original medallion or repro? If repro, from who?

And if you've ever installed a repro medallion, did you do it with the tractor assembled??

Next, I just went out to confirm space behind the grill. I pulled grill. Yup, lots of space until I reach upward behind the upper portion of the cast nose. This is where the hydraulic tank is mounted and the front of the tank comes to within a half-inch or so of the cast nose. With my hand flattened out, I still cannot get my fingers through there.

On the top, the hyd. tank shares mounting with the headlight studs. Ford manual says to adjust or replace headlights, remove the medallion by removing the two Phillips screws. (Which have been eliminated by Dennis Carpenter)

The only partial open area on my tractor is from the top, rear. I have all the top tin work off, (hood, etc.) A few minutes ago I crawled up from the side and attempted to reach across the top of the radiator, then across the hyd. tank toward the medallion opening. I can reach the top of the medallion opening and have 50% finger movement. I can just barely touch, with outstretched fingers, the bottom open area....but just with finger tips.

Thus the problem.

Have you had different experiences?

Dennis

 

[jrh009]

3M double sided tape, not exactly sure of the correct spec but that's what is used to hold on body trim on vehicles these days.

I removed some trim a while ago by cutting it off from the car with fishing line, it adheres right to the paint. Had to heat with a heat gun and saw the body trim off with the line, then cleaned off the adhesive.

I would guess the adhesive is a urethane based adhesive, I am sure auto parts stores would have this in stock.

I have a medallion for my 641 and that is what I am going to use.

Jim

 

[john_Bud]

(quoted from post at 13:17:51 12/05/11) Thanks, John:
Great photo you put up. I have a question about it too.... That nose of yours is from an Industrial later than my 1958. Color change and the medallion says, "Industrial." My nearly-shattered, original medallion is the, "wheat," version, which Tony Jacobs says was, indeed, used for the first couple years of 1841's.

Your medallion appears to be near new and I cannot see any Phillips screws from the front. Is that an original medallion or repro? If repro, from who?

And if you've ever installed a repro medallion, did you do it with the tractor assembled??

Next, I just went out to confirm space behind the grill. I pulled grill. Yup, lots of space until I reach upward behind the upper portion of the cast nose. This is where the hydraulic tank is mounted and the front of the tank comes to within a half-inch or so of the cast nose. With my hand flattened out, I still cannot get my fingers through there.

On the top, the hyd. tank shares mounting with the headlight studs. Ford manual says to adjust or replace headlights, remove the medallion by removing the two Phillips screws. (Which have been eliminated by Dennis Carpenter)

The only partial open area on my tractor is from the top, rear. I have all the top tin work off, (hood, etc.) A few minutes ago I crawled up from the side and attempted to reach across the top of the radiator, then across the hyd. tank toward the medallion opening. I can reach the top of the medallion opening and have 50% finger movement. I can just barely touch, with outstretched fingers, the bottom open area....but just with finger tips.

Thus the problem.

Have you had different experiences?

Dennis

Mine is a 1963 4140. I painted it with the 2 colors on the nose like the 1841's which is not correct, but I think it looks better. The medallion is from Dennis Carpenter and it was put on by reaching in that opening. Probably just a couple minutes prior to snapping the picture! It's been several years since I did that one, but there is no recollection of any problem. I've got pretty big mitts too.

Then again, I change all the spark plugs on a FE powered cougar, so a 1/2 inch of space is like heaven!

 

[DennisT]

Thanks, John:
Your photo is pretty good looking with the darkened background. I couldn't tell if your nosepiece was entirely off the tractor or not. But evidently not and you were able to get your fingers between the hyd. tank and the inside of the nose casting. When the weather warms I guess I'll find out.

Dennis