1939 9N Generator

Hi, Im working on 2 - 1939 9Ns tractor electrical system with a friend. We have 2 small generators that we now have at the Generator repair shop. Hes been in business for many years and is very familiar with order car and tractor generators. However he is a little challenged with these small generators for a couple reasons. We are telling him they are only suppose to operate on one wire. Both these generators have 2 terminals but our Carpenter 1939 wiring harness has only one wire to the generator. So we are trying to get him to work off just one terminal. Also he is having trouble finding parts for this small generator. We have heard that most of the 9N and 2N had one wire generators not these smalls ones except for 1939 but normal size with one terminal. Were these generator suppose to only have one terminal? Were these generators used for other applications that may have used two terminals? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Mark
 
Is the barrel diameter 3 5/8"? Do you have voltage regulators? What you have may be rare, so don;t throw them away. If all you want is a working generator, sell these to an aficionado along with the regulators and buy new ones and pocket the change. There are A circuit and B circuit windings, and these are the only ones with the B circuit, which is wired differently from all of the rest of the N series generators.

Don't change anything or do anything else until you read:
THE HISTORY OF THE FORD-FERGUSON 9N TRACTOR GENERATOR
by Tim Daley who should be along shortly.
It is on the n tractor club site under howtos lnk on the red bar at the top. You can't link to the site directly from here, but is is easy to find.

Ford was surprised to find that farmers stopped working after dark because the horses had to rest, but farmers are tougher than horses. Tractors don't need sleep so give them headlights and they will work until the job is done. 9N Tractor batteries can power headlights, but the early generators were only good for 7 amps and the batteries ran down. Most of them were replaced with slightly better generators and only a few remain.
 
Hi, Im working on 2 - 1939 9Ns tractor electrical system with a friend. We have 2 small generators that we now have at the Generator repair shop. Hes been in business for many years and is very familiar with order car and tractor generators. However he is a little challenged with these small generators for a couple reasons. We are telling him they are only suppose to operate on one wire. Both these generators have 2 terminals but our Carpenter 1939 wiring harness has only one wire to the generator. So we are trying to get him to work off just one terminal. Also he is having trouble finding parts for this small generator. We have heard that most of the 9N and 2N had one wire generators not these smalls ones except for 1939 but normal size with one terminal. Were these generator suppose to only have one terminal? Were these generators used for other applications that may have used two terminals? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Mark
HiYa Mark-
Congrats on your early 9N and restoration projects. Now, let’s do this right. I’ll try to keep it short. You have some incorrect information. The first 1939 FORD 9N used GENERATOR 9N-10000-A; a 2-WIRE/2-BRUSH, 7-AMP, B CIRCUIT DESIGN unit, w/ a small barrel & pulley. This was only used with the square VOLTAGE RSGULATOR, p/n 9N-10505-A. Both NLA, and rare as hen’s teeth to find originals. This VR was bolted to the lower steering box. The GEN was soon replaced with p/n 9N-10000-B; now a 1-WIRE/3-BRUSH, A CIRCUIT DESIGN, 7 AMP, w/ a small barrel & pulley and now used the ROUNDCAN CUTOUT CIRCUIT, p/n 9N-10505-B. The 9N-10000-B GEN had a ‘HI-LOW’ Slider Button on the back panel for 3RD Brush Adjustment. The 9NA & 9NB units are totally different, and parts do not cross over. Even the brushes are different. SEE MY DOCUMENT on Early 9N GENS. Understand the differences between an “A” Circuit and a “B” Circuit Design.

Next, a new GEN was released soon after, p/n 9N-10000-C, and now had a larger armature, barrel, and pulley; an 11.5 AMP output; still a 1-WIRE/3-BRUSH, “A” CIRCUIT, and still used the ROUNDCAN CUTOUT. The 9NC now had an adjustable screw pot for 3rd BRUSH adjustment on the back panel.

FORD was constantly battling the 9N Charging System. Farmers wanted lights and this put more strain on charging. Despite various changes like pulley sizes and a bigger armature, poor charging still was a problem for farmers. In 1942 FORD realized that the GEN needed proper fan belt tension in order to charge the battery. Up until then the design on the GENS was to maintain belt tension only via the mounting bolt thru. The units often failed in the field as the bolt loosened up and the slack caused little or no tension. Many farmers can attest to being left with a dead battery at the end of the day. May realized that unless you stopped every few hours to reset and tighten the bolt and tension, this would be the case. The solution was to design a belt tensioning device and attach it to the GEN. It had two parts, one on the GEN and another that bolted to the head for a positive stop anchor, SEE PIC. The 2N-10000 Unit was then released. It was virtually the same specs as the 9NC unit except for the new Tension Bracket bolted to the barrel. At the release of the 2N GEN, there was a belt tension kit with all the same parts except would allow the 9NC unit to attach via a steel band. The kit did not fit the prior 9N or 9N GENS. With the release of the 8N Model in 1947, the GEN was now a 3-WIRE/3-BRUSH, 11.5 AMP “A” CIRCUIT DESIGN unit and now used a new VOLTAGE REGULATOR, p/n 8N-10505. It was soon revamped with a larger armature & barrel at 20 AMPS now and only a 2-BRUSH unit. ALL GENS after the 8N now had a belt tensioner device affixed.

FYI: If you have the early 9N-10000 2-WIRE/2-BRUSH GEN but not the required VR, you can use the later FAG-10505-A Voltage Regulator, used 53-64. ALL GENS used the “B” CIRCUIT beginning with the 1953 NAA. You will need to modify the mounting for it, Also, caution must be used as possible burn out may occur when using unit with lights.

ALL 9N & 2N GENS were the same after 1940 using 1-WIRE and 3-BRUSHES; and required the ROUNDCAN CUTOUT.

I have some OEM brushes for both the 9NA and 9NB GENS somewhere but in storage now. I also have a repop pulley for the 9N-A GEN I had cast, exact-as-original. You can get a perfect wiring harness for the early 9N and later from Jim Guarno at AGRI-SERVICES in New York, www.wiringharnesses.com Do you have the OEM Early 9N 'IGNITION ON' DASH LAMP? Read more. Early 9N MPC’s show and list parts. You can email me for more info.


Tim Daley (MI)
 

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HiYa Mark-
Congrats on your early 9N and restoration projects. Now, let’s do this right. I’ll try to keep it short. You have some incorrect information. The first 1939 FORD 9N used GENERATOR 9N-10000-A; a 2-WIRE/2-BRUSH, 7-AMP, B CIRCUIT DESIGN unit, w/ a small barrel & pulley. This was only used with the square VOLTAGE RSGULATOR, p/n 9N-10505-A. Both NLA, and rare as hen’s teeth to find originals. This VR was bolted to the lower steering box. The GEN was soon replaced with p/n 9N-10000-B; now a 1-WIRE/3-BRUSH, A CIRCUIT DESIGN, 7 AMP, w/ a small barrel & pulley and now used the ROUNDCAN CUTOUT CIRCUIT, p/n 9N-10505-B. The 9N-10000-B GEN had a ‘HI-LOW’ Slider Button on the back panel for 3RD Brush Adjustment. The 9NA & 9NB units are totally different, and parts do not cross over. Even the brushes are different. SEE MY DOCUMENT on Early 9N GENS. Understand the differences between an “A” Circuit and a “B” Circuit Design.

Next, a new GEN was released soon after, p/n 9N-10000-C, and now had a larger armature, barrel, and pulley; an 11.5 AMP output; still a 1-WIRE/3-BRUSH, “A” CIRCUIT, and still used the ROUNDCAN CUTOUT. The 9NC now had an adjustable screw pot for 3rd BRUSH adjustment on the back panel.

FORD was constantly battling the 9N Charging System. Farmers wanted lights and this put more strain on charging. Despite various changes like pulley sizes and a bigger armature, poor charging still was a problem for farmers. In 1942 FORD realized that the GEN needed proper fan belt tension in order to charge the battery. Up until then the design on the GENS was to maintain belt tension only via the mounting bolt thru. The units often failed in the field as the bolt loosened up and the slack caused little or no tension. Many farmers can attest to being left with a dead battery at the end of the day. May realized that unless you stopped every few hours to reset and tighten the bolt and tension, this would be the case. The solution was to design a belt tensioning device and attach it to the GEN. It had two parts, one on the GEN and another that bolted to the head for a positive stop anchor, SEE PIC. The 2N-10000 Unit was then released. It was virtually the same specs as the 9NC unit except for the new Tension Bracket bolted to the barrel. At the release of the 2N GEN, there was a belt tension kit with all the same parts except would allow the 9NC unit to attach via a steel band. The kit did not fit the prior 9N or 9N GENS. With the release of the 8N Model in 1947, the GEN was now a 3-WIRE/3-BRUSH, 11.5 AMP “A” CIRCUIT DESIGN unit and now used a new VOLTAGE REGULATOR, p/n 8N-10505. It was soon revamped with a larger armature & barrel at 20 AMPS now and only a 2-BRUSH unit. ALL GENS after the 8N now had a belt tensioner device affixed.

FYI: If you have the early 9N-10000 2-WIRE/2-BRUSH GEN but not the required VR, you can use the later FAG-10505-A Voltage Regulator, used 53-64. ALL GENS used the “B” CIRCUIT beginning with the 1953 NAA. You will need to modify the mounting for it, Also, caution must be used as possible burn out may occur when using unit with lights.

ALL 9N & 2N GENS were the same after 1940 using 1-WIRE and 3-BRUSHES; and required the ROUNDCAN CUTOUT.

I have some OEM brushes for both the 9NA and 9NB GENS somewhere but in storage now. I also have a repop pulley for the 9N-A GEN I had cast, exact-as-original. You can get a perfect wiring harness for the early 9N and later from Jim Guarno at AGRI-SERVICES in New York, www.wiringharnesses.com Do you have the OEM Early 9N 'IGNITION ON' DASH LAMP? Read more. Early 9N MPC’s show and list parts. You can email me for more info.


Tim Daley (MI)
MORE INFO on GEN CIRCUIT DESIGNS

-Tim Daley (MI)
 

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Thankyou Tim and Dave, Dave thanks for your insight on this subject and referral to Tim's information. Yes they are the small generators with the pulley about the same size as the generator. And yes we are working to make these two 1939 tractors as authentic as possible. Tim your extensive information on this subject is priceless. You have thoroughly impressed me with your knowledge. Thankyou so much for your time and effort in getting it to us. I feel lucky to have these two small generators but dont think I'll be so lucky to find original square regulators that you refer to. Do you have a source on a regulator that would fit the two bolt mounting location on the lower steering sector. Wish you were close by so I could at least thankyou by taking you out to lunch. So I hope I can return the favor to you someday. Thank you so Much. Mark PS. I will shortly be sharing this information with my tractor friend and generator shop. They will be thrilled.
 
I don't believe it. I searched VOLTAGE REGULATOR Ford # FAL-10505-A and found one for $125 on link to fleabay Says NOS.

The part number is from this old thread.

Ford parts ASAP has a B circuit regulator that MAY work. I would definitely defer to Tim on this. I can search the internet, but Tim actually knows things.

I don't think I can post a link to Ford parts ASAP.
ASAP Item No. 105537 about $45 with shipping.
 
I don't believe it. I searched VOLTAGE REGULATOR Ford # FAL-10505-A and found one for $125 on link to fleabay Says NOS.

The part number is from this old thread.

Ford parts ASAP has a B circuit regulator that MAY work. I would definitely defer to Tim on this. I can search the internet, but Tim actually knows things.

I don't think I can post a link to Ford parts ASAP.
ASAP Item No. 105537 about $45 with shipping.
ASAP (All States At Parts) is the parent company of Yesterday's Tractors. You can post links to their site.

This site has the regulator as well, same part number.

105537 regulator
 
Thanks Dave for locating the regulator on Ebay. That was a surprise that that popped up. It has the correct part number but the mounting appear to be different for the 1939 mounting bosses on the front lower steering sector and Tim's photo of an original regulator on his Post. At least it looks that way to me. The original one has two mounting holes on the back of the housing and the one on Ebay I think has three in a triangle configuration. Am I correct? Also thanks to Jim.ME for your imput on the aftermarket regulator that can be bought on this site. Mark
 
Thankyou Tim and Dave, Dave thanks for your insight on this subject and referral to Tim's information. Yes they are the small generators with the pulley about the same size as the generator. And yes we are working to make these two 1939 tractors as authentic as possible. Tim your extensive information on this subject is priceless. You have thoroughly impressed me with your knowledge. Thankyou so much for your time and effort in getting it to us. I feel lucky to have these two small generators but dont think I'll be so lucky to find original square regulators that you refer to. Do you have a source on a regulator that would fit the two bolt mounting location on the lower steering sector. Wish you were close by so I could at least thankyou by taking you out to lunch. So I hope I can return the favor to you someday. Thank you so Much. Mark PS. I will shortly be sharing this information with my tractor friend and generator shop. They will be thrilled.
 
Thankyou Tim and Dave, Dave thanks for your insight on this subject and referral to Tim's information. Yes they are the small generators with the pulley about the same size as the generator. And yes we are working to make these two 1939 tractors as authentic as possible. Tim your extensive information on this subject is priceless. You have thoroughly impressed me with your knowledge. Thankyou so much for your time and effort in getting it to us. I feel lucky to have these two small generators but dont think I'll be so lucky to find original square regulators that you refer to. Do you have a source on a regulator that would fit the two bolt mounting location on the lower steering sector. Wish you were close by so I could at least thankyou by taking you out to lunch. So I hope I can return the favor to you someday. Thank you so Much. Mark PS. I will shortly be sharing this information with my tractor friend and generator shop. They will be thrilled.
Thank you for the kind words, always appreciated. I'm in MICHIGAN, The Thumb Region, if you ever get this way. The original 9N-10505 Voltage Regulator used only on the 9N-A GEN is a hard item to locate. I was lucky to find a guy on ebay with new, VRs for the 38/39 FORD DeLuxe Car that used the same unit. He had the correct case and wired the guts in solid state. I had it tested by my good friend JMOR and it's good to go. He had 3 or 4 and I bought them all but he never built anymore. At car shows I look for the DeLuxe cars but every one I've seen has had a 12V conversion done to it so no VR in them.
Now, the 9N-A GENERATOR uses the "B" Circuit Design. The VR is wired just for that. When the 9N-B GEN was released, it was now an "A" Circuit unit and now used the Round Can Cutout. FORD didn't use another VR until 1947 with the new 8N Model. All GENERATORS from 1940 thru 52 were "A"Circuit Designs.. In SEP 1952, the new model, the NAA, was introduced and it now had a "B" Circuit Design. ALL GENS/VR's starting with the NAA were now a "B" Circuit Design. The only way to be absolutely sure on what the circuit design is on your GEN will be to have the internal wiring verified so never assume your unit is always correct. Polarizing the GEN can be done via the cutout as shown as well. That is always the ;last step before you fire up the tractor so take note.

OK, since we know the 9N-A GEN uses the "B" Circuit, if you do not have an original or repop VR to match it, you CAN use the NAA Voltage Regulator as it is a "B" Circuit as well. You just have to be careful to not run your lights very long as the circuit can be fried. The NAA VR is p/n FAG-10505-A. You will need to modify the mounting as it won't match up the 9N lower steering box VR mounting bosses as cast - SEE PIX.

Tim Daley (MI)
 

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Tim, Which circuit can be damaged by using the lights? The original VR, NAA VR or the generator?

Neither VR looks like it was designed to fit the 9N tractor. It shouldn't be too hard to make an adapter plate.
 
Tim, Which circuit can be damaged by using the lights? The original VR, NAA VR or the generator?

Neither VR looks like it was designed to fit the 9N tractor. It shouldn't be too hard to make an adapter plate.
The NAA VR; p/n FAG-10505-B VR can be damaged when using the 9N-A GEN instead of the original when using lights. JMOR has the technical details. You can run lights but only for a short time. Did you get my copy of the EARLY 9N GENS? It has a Service Bulletin listed that shows the optional adaptor bar/plate you could get when adding the Roundcan Cutout Circuit to a 9N-B or 9N-C GEN. The original 9N-10505-A VR mounts as shown with 2 bolts on the lower steering box bosses. The 8N and after used a different VR supplied by AUTO-LITE. Aftermarket design as used today is slightly different and mounting hole bolt spread is different as well.

BTW: Do you have the original AMMETER, 9N-10505-A, a 20 AMP screw terminal unit? Used only the first 4000 tractors. The 30A INDUCTION/LOOP gauge came after then.

Tim Daley (MI)
 

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Tim, Which circuit can be damaged by using the lights? The original VR, NAA VR or the generator?

Neither VR looks like it was designed to fit the 9N tractor. It shouldn't be too hard to make an adapter plate.
It is the generator that can be damaged by over current. The reason is that the original 9N 10505A regulator current limiting function is designed for 7.5 amperes and the NAA/Jubilee FAG 10505A is designed with a 20 ampere current limiting function. So, if you use it with this arrangement, it is up to the user to keep loads below the 7.5 amperes, as the regulator isn't going to do it for you.
 
It is the generator that can be damaged by over current. The reason is that the original 9N 10505A regulator current limiting function is designed for 7.5 amperes and the NAA/Jubilee FAG 10505A is designed with a 20 ampere current limiting function. So, if you use it with this arrangement, it is up to the user to keep loads below the 7.5 amperes, as the regulator isn't going to do it for you.
COOL BEANS JMOR! I had this noted down from your notes before, just couldn't find it. Thank you for clarifying it for us as always.

Tim Daley (MI)
 
JMOR, Tim, and Dave, Thanks again for all this additional wonderful information. I dont know what we would have done with out you. I have a regulator adapter plate that came with another alternator for mounting the 3 hole alternator. Maybe that plate could be used with some small modifications to mount the FAG10505A to the two bolt bosses on the lower front of the steering sector of these 9N. I dont know if these mounting plates are available separately and I dont think they come with the FAG10505A regulator that Tim is referring to. Incidentally this is my one little attempt to make a extremely small contribution to this subject. Thank Much!! Mark
 
JMOR, Tim, and Dave, Thanks again for all this additional wonderful information. I dont know what we would have done with out you. I have a regulator adapter plate that came with another alternator for mounting the 3 hole alternator. Maybe that plate could be used with some small modifications to mount the FAG10505A to the two bolt bosses on the lower front of the steering sector of these 9N. I dont know if these mounting plates are available separately and I dont think they come with the FAG10505A regulator that Tim is referring to. Incidentally this is my one little attempt to make a extremely small contribution to this subject. Thank Much!! Mark
Some 8N replacement VRs come with a mount/adapter plate (some on this sites 8N parts listings). Could you use one as a starting point on 2N? Maybe.
 

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JMOR, Tim, and Dave, Thanks again for all this additional wonderful information. I dont know what we would have done with out you. I have a regulator adapter plate that came with another alternator for mounting the 3 hole alternator. Maybe that plate could be used with some small modifications to mount the FAG10505A to the two bolt bosses on the lower front of the steering sector of these 9N. I dont know if these mounting plates are available separately and I dont think they come with the FAG10505A regulator that Tim is referring to. Incidentally this is my one little attempt to make a extremely small contribution to this subject. Thank Much!! Mark
Got some scrap metal around? Get creative. Measure the hole spread of the two bosses on the lower steering box where the VR mounts to. Take you new FAG-10505 VR and mark/measure the two mounting holes with the center to center dimension. Get a bar/plate of scrap steel or aluminum, your drill press, and scribe the two mounting holes first. Then transpose the two bolt holes from the FAG-VR onto the plate. Drill and tap as needed. The early 8N VR mounting plate may work as JMOR said but the plate only is sold with a new VR kit. You'd have to buy the FAG and the early 8N VR's, but we don't know if the plate will adapt or not. Your call. You can do this. Let us know on your progress.

Tim Daley (MI)
 
Hi, Im working on 2 - 1939 9Ns tractor electrical system with a friend. We have 2 small generators that we now have at the Generator repair shop. Hes been in business for many years and is very familiar with order car and tractor generators. However he is a little challenged with these small generators for a couple reasons. We are telling him they are only suppose to operate on one wire. Both these generators have 2 terminals but our Carpenter 1939 wiring harness has only one wire to the generator. So we are trying to get him to work off just one terminal. Also he is having trouble finding parts for this small generator. We have heard that most of the 9N and 2N had one wire generators not these smalls ones except for 1939 but normal size with one terminal. Were these generator suppose to only have one terminal? Were these generators used for other applications that may have used two terminals? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Mark
MORE INFO-

FAG-10505-A VOLTAGE REGULATOR - SOLD HERE FOR $28... WHY GO TO CNH, AMAZON, OR EBAY???


FYI:

Here is another PICTOGRAM from JMOR...



TPD
 

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Thanks Tim and JMOR for the additional recent help. All was very helpful and we are now on our way to getting this tractor together. Mark
 

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