2-bolt and 3-bolt mount starters

[Tejon]

Farmall M (from what I have read) used 2-bolt and 3-bolt starters with the external threaded stud to connect to the battery cable. I can only find the 2-bolt mount starters. Can I swap the 3-bolt nose to the 2-bolt nose starter?

 

[matthies]

I am sure you could, just look a little harder cause this site shows both 2 and 3 bolt starters.

 

[Tejon]

I think I need to add more information for clarification and repeat.

3-bolt mount starters are available but only in the style that requires a saddle mount switch, a activation lever arm, and a pull rod for the lever arm. This is what I am finding.

I am looking for a 3-bolt mount starter that has the exposed battery cable stud. There seems to be plenty 2-bolt mount starters that have the exposed battery cable stud for the M.

So back to my original question, can the 3-bolt nose from my starter can be swapped onto the 2-bolt nose?

 

[Jim.ME]

What is the back story. Has your starter with a stud for a cable has died and you are looking for a replacement? Or does your current starter use a saddle switch, and you want to change to a stud so you can use a relay solenoid to energize it? In either case, have a starter shop change the switch contact to a stud.

The noses might swap, but you need to confirm the armature diameter is the same in the end bushing and travel distance for the drive is the same, as well as just the nose bolting up.

 

[Tejon]

What is the back story. Has your starter with a stud for a cable has died and you are looking for a replacement? Or does your current starter use a saddle switch, and you want to change to a stud so you can use a relay solenoid to energize it? In either case, have a starter shop change the switch contact to a stud.

The noses might swap, but you need to confirm the armature diameter is the same in the end bushing and travel distance for the drive is the same, as well as just the nose bolting up.

Jim.M,

Current starter has the stud. No idea if the starter is operational at all. I should put a jumper cable to it and see if it spins. I have not taken it apart to check for field shorts, bushing wear, brush issues, nothing. Just trying to source another starter to have on hand.

I agree about the about the spec's on the armature and drive travel distance.

Starter shop would be nice but living out in the sticks they are hard to find and when you do the cost of shipping is outrageous. My first thought was to change the saddle switch flat contactor plate to a stud but I have heard that the it's not as simple as it seems. I think a starter shop is where I need to head to. Thanks

 

[Jim.ME]

Jim.M,

Current starter has the stud. No idea if the starter is operational at all. I should put a jumper cable to it and see if it spins. I have not taken it apart to check for field shorts, bushing wear, brush issues, nothing. Just trying to source another starter to have on hand.

I agree about the about the spec's on the armature and drive travel distance.

Starter shop would be nice but living out in the sticks they are hard to find and when you do the cost of shipping is outrageous. My first thought was to change the saddle switch flat contactor plate to a stud but I have heard that the it's not as simple as it seems. I think a starter shop is where I need to head to. Thanks

Putting power to it would be the first thing I would have tried. You may find it works ok.

You could change the starter switch contact to a stud yourself, if you have heavy soldering irons or a very fine tipped torch as the contact or stud is soldered to the field leads inside the starter.


You say you are located in the sticks. Many people are located in the sticks. What general part of the world is your sticks located in?

You could try giving PartsASAP/YT a call and see if they can help. They have rebuilt starters and if they rebuild in house, they might be able to rebuild one that way for you. Just a thought, it doesn't cost, beyond some time, to ask.

 

[D Slater]

Farmall M (from what I have read) used 2-bolt and 3-bolt starters with the external threaded stud to connect to the battery cable. I can only find the 2-bolt mount starters. Can I swap the 3-bolt nose to the 2-bolt nose starter?

Only 3 bolt nose starters for a M were used on a MD. If you have 3 bolt mount it's a MD housing or a stage 2 SM housing. If a SM 3 bolt mount a starter from a 300, 400, 350 or 450 and some others will work. Part of those are 12 volts. Use magnetic switch on starter or just cable to stud from kick start switch or whatever. If MD center housing you may want to repair what you have as the hole starter bolts in is a different distance form ring gear than a SM housing with a 6-digit number ending in R1 is. Maybe you have a stage 2 SM. If you have a MD starter it would have the stud cable mount. Some of the two bolt and three bolt starters can have noses and armature that can be switched around either way. Picture of 450 12-volt starter I put on a 2-bolt nose. Have put M starters on 3 bolt noses also.

 

[rustred]

i am surprised you know nothing about the old starter. and living in the sticks would make a person do everything he can to keep a tractor running by actually checking the starter before inquiring about another starter. dont suppose you even have the hand crank to get you out of a bind.

 

[Tejon]

Putting power to it would be the first thing I would have tried. You may find it works ok.

You could change the starter switch contact to a stud yourself, if you have heavy soldering irons or a very fine tipped torch as the contact or stud is soldered to the field leads inside the starter.


You say you are located in the sticks. Many people are located in the sticks. What general part of the world is your sticks located in?

You could try giving PartsASAP/YT a call and see if they can help. They have rebuilt starters and if they rebuild in house, they might be able to rebuild one that way for you. Just a thought, it doesn't cost, beyond some time, to ask.

Putting power to it FIRST would be the first step I agree but what if it didn't work that would bring us to where I'm at now.

I don't have heavy duty soldering irons and was never any good at soldering. I am proficient with a gas welding torch and have the items needed except empty out of date pressure tanks and rotted hoses. Another choice put money into the torch set up or a new starter? uugh!

Southwestern NM sticks with lots of sand. YES, I have tried a few of the major parts suppliers and they advertise one thing but when it arrives it is the saddle mount switch style. I never thought about inquiring if they rebuilt the starters in house. I will revisit those areas and ask.

 

[Tejon]

Only 3 bolt nose starters for a M were used on a MD. If you have 3 bolt mount it's a MD housing or a stage 2 SM housing. If a SM 3 bolt mount a starter from a 300, 400, 350 or 450 and some others will work. Part of those are 12 volts. Use magnetic switch on starter or just cable to stud from kick start switch or whatever. If MD center housing you may want to repair what you have as the hole starter bolts in is a different distance form ring gear than a SM housing with a 6-digit number ending in R1 is. Maybe you have a stage 2 SM. If you have a MD starter it would have the stud cable mount. Some of the two bolt and three bolt starters can have noses and armature that can be switched around either way. Picture of 450 12-volt starter I put on a 2-bolt nose. Have put M starters on 3 bolt noses also.

Now this is information I haven't heard about.. very interesting
This the casting numbers on the clutch housing and what is stamped on the starter data tag. There isn't a data tag on the clutch housing. The engine is stamped X 1 and that is gasoline. The engine cover has a M on it so I assume it's a M and not a SM and not a MD (diesel).

 

[Tejon]

i am surprised you know nothing about the old starter. and living in the sticks would make a person do everything he can to keep a tractor running by actually checking the starter before inquiring about another starter. dont suppose you even have the hand crank to get you out of a bind.

Hmmm how do I answer this.... What's to know about an old starter outside of the attributes on the starter to match up in order to purchase a new starter. I don't need to know if the starter works or not if I desire to purchase a replacement starter. Never said the tractor was running and YES I do have the hand crank SURPRISE BOO-YA

 

[mschwartz]

Looks like you have a replacement center section. Have had a couple of those and I think you will have to make your starter lug or pull switch yourself. I think that all of the three bolt starters were saddle switch from IH and probably some one swapped the nose on yours to keep the original wiring set up when the center section was replaced. What year is your tractor? The ones that I have with the newer center section were early M’s that had been loader tractors. Good luck, Mike

 

[Tejon]

Looks like you have a replacement center section. Have had a couple of those and I think you will have to make your starter lug or pull switch yourself. I think that all of the three bolt starters were saddle switch from IH and probably some one swapped the nose on yours to keep the original wiring set up when the center section was replaced. What year is your tractor? The ones that I have with the newer center section were early M’s that had been loader tractors. Good luck, Mike

It could very well be a replacement section... I could have a Frankenstein tractor. It has Lambert disc brakes 3-bolt covers, and a flip up rear seat that has a base to be mounted to a tool box or under seat battery box. Tractor doesn't have a battery box under fuel tank but has the mounting strap and the seat was mounted to a chunk of I-beam (ha,ha). Some of these items are stated as optional in the parts book (not the I-beam) but I don't know. It will definitely be a conversation item.

From the casting numbers I think it is a 1947. The engine has FBKM 131495
Thanks

 

[Jim.ME]

Putting power to it FIRST would be the first step I agree but what if it didn't work that would bring us to where I'm at now.

I don't have heavy duty soldering irons and was never any good at soldering. I am proficient with a gas welding torch and have the items needed except empty out of date pressure tanks and rotted hoses. Another choice put money into the torch set up or a new starter? uugh!

Southwestern NM sticks with lots of sand. YES, I have tried a few of the major parts suppliers and they advertise one thing but when it arrives it is the saddle mount switch style. I never thought about inquiring if they rebuilt the starters in house. I will revisit those areas and ask.

True if you put power to it and it doesn't work; this is the point you will be at. And it is perfectly your option to look for replacement without checking the current starter and I am not saying you should stop looking. Just that until you put power to it you don't know if it works. If it works and you want to start the tractor you can continue to work on the tractor while you search for a starter. Just suggestions the path forward is totally up to you.

Do you know that the engine will turn 360 degrees, or is it stuck?

In your picture the Delco Remy tag is still on the starter. There should be a seven-digit number on it that begins with 11 stamped into the tag (there will be some other code stampings separate and following the number). That number may not be the solution, but it may be a clue. The number can be used in a search to see what other starters with that number look like or cross reference to. It may turn out to be the Delco Remy number for a starter with the two-bolt nose.

 

[D Slater]

Now this is information I haven't heard about.. very interesting
View attachment 132493 View attachment 132494 View attachment 132495View attachment 132496 This the casting numbers on the clutch housing and what is stamped on the starter data tag. There isn't a data tag on the clutch housing. The engine is stamped X 1 and that is gasoline. The engine cover has a M on it so I assume it's a M and not a SM and not a MD (diesel).

That is a center housing like used on SM tractors F-28175 or L-504802 and higher serials or on SW-6 tractors that used frame rails. Gas or diesel on all those. Also used later as replacement housing for M through SM below above numbers. Starter parts to uses original starter were needed on models below serial numbers. Several starters will bolt up and work on the housing.

 

[Tejon]

True if you put power to it and it doesn't work; this is the point you will be at. And it is perfectly your option to look for replacement without checking the current starter and I am not saying you should stop looking. Just that until you put power to it you don't know if it works. If it works and you want to start the tractor you can continue to work on the tractor while you search for a starter. Just suggestions the path forward is totally up to you.

Do you know that the engine will turn 360 degrees, or is it stuck?

In your picture the Delco Remy tag is still on the starter. There should be a seven-digit number on it that begins with 11 stamped into the tag (there will be some other code stampings separate and following the number). That number may not be the solution, but it may be a clue. The number can be used in a search to see what other starters with that number look like or cross reference to. It may turn out to be the Delco Remy number for a starter with the two-bolt nose.

I should have put power to the starter but then if I had there would have been someone asking did it turn the engine over (ha,ha) and the engine doesn't matter. However, the valve cover was removed for valve train inspection and there are a couple valves stuck so no further action taken on the engine but its in the near future like a winter project. The engine oil was drained and no water so that was a plus. Back to the starter.......

I didn't notice the starter tag was upside down on prior post. On the tag is 1107427 and 1H13. On the housing 5 2 79 J is stamped. This number on the housing may be from a rebuilder possibly.

 

[Jim.ME]

I should have put power to the starter but then if I had there would have been someone asking did it turn the engine over (ha,ha) and the engine doesn't matter. However, the valve cover was removed for valve train inspection and there are a couple valves stuck so no further action taken on the engine but its in the near future like a winter project. The engine oil was drained and no water so that was a plus. Back to the starter.......

View attachment 132513 I didn't notice the starter tag was upside down on prior post. On the tag is 1107427 and 1H13. On the housing 5 2 79 J is stamped. This number on the housing may be from a rebuilder possibly.

That number shows up as having a 2-bolt end housing on the PartsASAP site. It says it is 6 volt and fits Ms serial number 28174 - earlier. From that I would say there is a very good chance the end housings will interchange. YMMV

 

[used red MN]

If the engine is locked just pull that starter and test it with jumper cables out of the tractor to see if it spins. Clamp it in a vise or hold it down to the floor with your foot it will twist from the start up torque if it is working properly. If it doesn’t spin you can even tear it down and likely repair it. There is no electrical voodoo in them just simple mechanics. A few photos and questions on here and you’ll have it fixed up. I agree, the 892357R1 is a Super M clutch housing.

 

[Tejon]

That number shows up as having a 2-bolt end housing on the PartsASAP site. It says it is 6 volt and fits Ms serial number 28174 - earlier. From that I would say there is a very good chance the end housings will interchange. YMMV

More very interesting information. I was thinking that the nose would interchange with a 2-bolt unit. I may get a 2-bolt starter and see how it works out. However, contacting a remanufacture or rebuilder will be done to hear what they have to say since they work with these starters all the time.

Thank-you