24 volt gurus?

[Ragnarok]

I was checking my old tractor's charging system out...It's a 4010 with a still stock 24 volt split starting/charging system.

Anyhow...it charges and puts the charge light out on the dash ok..however I did notice that it doesn't charge the left battery very much...not nearly as much as the right-side battery.

I do suspect that the left battery is bad or going bad. It will charge up with the battery charger ok...but in a day or so of sitting the left battery will be down and I don't think it's got a wiring issue/drain. Seems to me that as a dealership tech back in the day it was common for the 24 volt tractors to charge one battery better than the other.

Things I do need to do to my ancient 4010 are clean/replace some battery cables...and I do need to r&r the starter and clean it up. Was also thing about getting my 'strong box' batteries properly load tested and perhaps swapping sides with the batteries. I have considered converting to 12 volt starting/charging..however I've pretty much decided to stay 24 volt for the time being.

Just looking for some 24 volt tips and tricks to optimize my cool old 4010 tractor's charging system...so any advice or thoughts appreciated...

 

[cornerpost]

It will feel so good when you quit banging
your head against the wall and convert to 12
volt. That being said a build up of crud in
starter causes constant battery drain on
these hermaphrodite systems.

 

[Tramway Guy]

Swap the batteries and see if the problem stays with the battery in question or continues with the 'new' one.

 

[Bob]

Batteries CHARGE in series @ 24 Volts, if they are identical they should charge pretty evenly.

It's the 12 Volt LOADS, lights, etc, and parasitic loads that will discharge one battery more than the others.

If the batteries are connected as they left the factory, parasitic loads from conductive debris in the starter or generator will deplete the RH battery.

In other words, the (+) post of the RH battery was originally connected to the post on the engine side of the starter "belly" and to the post in the "belly" of the generator, so power wasn't cut off from that side of the battery to the innards of the starter or the innards of the generator, explaining the draw on that battery.

 

[Tech 7]

I am NOT a 24 volt (or anything else for that matter) guru but agree that the "leak" could be in the starter as others have posted. John T set me on to that several years ago. To check the batteries I would isolate them from the tractor, charge them, check the specific gravity and leave them disconnected from the tractor for a day or two. Check the voltage or specific gravity at this time, it should be relatively unchanged from fully charged.

 

[David G]

I would swap the batteries and see if problem moves, bad battery if it does, probably a dirty starter or imbalanced load if not.

 

[David G]

I would convert it to 12V if you are going to the work of pulling the starter, real easy process.

 

[Ragnarok]

(quoted from post at 09:36:48 12/27/16) I would convert it to 12V if you are going to the work of pulling the starter, real easy process.

Yeh...I've thought about it...and it's what I recommend to my customers with 24v 4010/4020. However my old tractor is pretty much 1961 factory stock that the previous owner had kept up with 'genuine JD parts'. I should be able to fix any 24V issues(I always seem to get lucky!)

I think I'll clean/fix/replace some battery cables....load test my possible bad battery...bring my starter wrench home and gut and clean my starter 'cause the Bendix is hanging-up sometimes.

Basically...I'm too tight to convert it over..and if I need batteries..I need two 12v either way...plus I wouldn't mind keeping it stock. I just to need to get smarter on 24V Deere systems as I don't work on these much(and now own one)

 

[buickanddeere]

Install a switch on the "ground" wire that runs between the chassis and the center of the batteries . Open the switch when not in operation.
As previously stated one battery maybe weak and/or the 12V loads are not balanced.
As much of a purist that I am , the 12V conversion is recomemded for the persons with a casual acquaintance with electricity .

 

[Tx Jim]

Ditto what cornerpost stated about changing electrical system over to 12 volts & save yourself a lot of GRIEF.

 

[buckeye al]

If it is as it left Waterloo, the dirt in the starter issue should be bothering the RIGHT battery! Check to see which battery is connected directly to the side post of the starter. If it is the right battery (how it left Waterloo) then your discharged LEFT battery problem is:

- a wiring fault (corrosion) that leaks current to the frame of the tractor or
- the left battery is bad or going bad or
- the batteries are dissimilar or
- you have some unbalanced external load situation that is preventing normal charge of the left battery when it's running.

If you don't have any "user added" appliances (radio, added lights or monitors etc) this last issue is not the problem. If you DO have user added appliances, these really hit the 24 volt charging system right square in the seat o the pants! It may be what has caused the left battery to "go bad" to begin with! The two batteries being of different ages or different ratings or manufacture is always a problem with the 24 volt system! The more identical the batteries, the less trouble they give. Mixing them up is just begging for difficulties. Any load added to one battery needs also added to the other or it's just like twin calves. The one that gets mosta the milk does better than the other!

If you find the left battery's cable is attached to the side post of the starter instead of to one of the solenoid posts, then look at your starter!

Hope that helps.

 

[Ragnarok]

The batteries are a set of good old JD 'Strong-Box' same age..about two years old. These rarely die in pairs I know.

I hauled a brand-new set of bad Strong Box' batteries out of the store a few months ago. Wouldn't hardly crank the tractor new(and charged..I always charge new batteries)...anyhow when I took them back to the dealer...one new battery tested bad..the other marginal!

Others have been complaining about the Deere batteries too. Seems the JD batteries have taken a turn for the worse now that they ship them wet....

 

[Joe Mindy]

I have three articles in Green magazine on the 24 Volt System. They are April 2013, March 2014 and April 2014. The first article shows how to logically and systematically pinpoint parasitic drains. The articles have been criticized by members of this forum, even though they have never read them! Back issues are available.

 

[Tx Jim]

Joe or Tom whichever is your handle today doesn't one or more of your articles state that the JD 24 volt electrical system is grounded(earth) connection when in fact the starter,generator & voltage regulator are isolated from tractor frame IE no ground connection? Granted the lights & accessories such as fuel gauge require either + & - grounds(earth) connections depending on which battery(A or B) is powering which electrical function.

 

[John T]

Actually he (a retired history professor) is on record stating the 24 volt system WAS POSITIVE GROUND !!!!! Despite that (hey nobody is perfect and we all make mistakes) he's still a nice old gentleman and a friend.

Have a Happy New Year Tx Jim, best wishes

PS I was in Coleman Texas over Thanksgiving

John T

 

[buickanddeere]

Tx Jim is correct. The JD 24 volt system does not use the chassis as a current path. Half of the 12V Devices are 12V + to chassis and the other half of the 12V loads are 12V- to chassis.

 

[Joe Mindy]

That sounds good but unfortunately the system doesn't work that way. When the tractor is running, the generator is the source of voltage and amperage. Obviously the generator doesn't charge both positive and negative at the same time! Read the articles!

 

[Bud Sather in MT]

I have one of those tractors. The previous owner moved the 2 batteries and now are right in front of the step into the cab. The last set of excide batteries lasted 6 years. That being said I swap the batteries 2 times a year. Most of the hours come from baleing hay at night. I rewired the system so that the lights are drawing from both batteries about the same.
Bud

 

[Bob]

"I rewired the system so that the lights are drawing from both batteries about the same."

Bud, someone must have mucked it up before you because they originally left the factory with the lighting loads split between the (+) 12 Volts side and the (-) 12 Volts side!

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 11:44:11 12/28/16) That sounds good but unfortunately the system doesn't work that way. When the tractor is running, the generator is the source of voltage and amperage. Obviously the generator doesn't charge both positive and negative at the same time! Read the articles!

Joe why can not accept what the Delco and Deere engineers wrote? Or the word electrical engineers who have looked at the diagrams and have worked on the 24V tractors? Or beleieve the word of JD factory trained service techs?
The lesson from history is that we are doomed to repeat it.

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 11:57:16 12/28/16) I have one of those tractors. The previous owner moved the 2 batteries and now are right in front of the step into the cab. The last set of excide batteries lasted 6 years. That being said I swap the batteries 2 times a year. Most of the hours come from baleing hay at night. I rewired the system so that the lights are drawing from both batteries about the same.
Bud

From the factory the load from the lights were balanced.

 

[Tx Jim]

(quoted from post at 11:44:11 12/28/16) That sounds good but unfortunately the system doesn't work that way. When the tractor is running, the generator is the source of voltage and amperage. Obviously the generator doesn't charge both positive and negative at the same time! Read the articles!

REALLY WHY YOUR INACCURATE ARTICLE because both 12 volt batteries are in series charged by a 24 VOLT generator controlled by a 24 volt regulator that's isolated from tractor frame

 

[John T]

BUICK IS CORRECT well mostly balanced I would say, approximately 1/2 was on the A 12 volt Feed while the other 1/2 was fed from the B 12 volt Feed. Those batteries (be they four sixes or two twelves) charge in series at a combined series 24 volts and the Generator and Voltage Regulator and Starter are two wire 24 volt devices ISOLATED OFF GROUND FLOATING AND CERTAINY NOTTTTTTTTTTTT POSITIVE GROUND.

John Deere engineers and all the official Deere diagrams show the 24 volt WAS FLOATING AND NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT POSITIVE GROUND as the retired history professor Tom 43 aka Joe Mindy aka Barack once stated. We all make mistakes so he shouldn't feel bad however.


PS I attended Buicks 24 volt seminar at a Two Cylinder Expo which was excellent he really knows his stuff

Happy New Year

John T

 

[John T]

That's CORRECT JIM the Generator and Voltage Regulator and Starter are indeed two wire 24 volt floating electrically isolated off frame ground devices and certainly NOT Positive grounded. At least that's how all the factory original tractors were wired and all the Deere publications and diagrams show, its ONLY Barack aka Tom 43 aka Joe Mindy who claimed it was POSITIVE ground. I'm siding with how the tractors were built and the Deere diagrams show but mean no offense to anyone who claims otherwise, anyone is entitled to a mistake. However ever hear the old expression, "If you find yourself in a hole STOP DIGGING"

Happy New Year and God Bless all here be they right or wrong

John T

 

[Ragnarok]

Without regard to the electrical theory on just how the Deere 24 volt system works...(looks like it charges 24 volts to me...starts 24 volts...powers lights and instruments off 12 volt battery A or battery B...one positive ground circuit and one negative ground 12V circuit)....I pulled my starter off this afternoon and took it apart. Bendix/starter-drive is rusty and shot...helix on armature is rusty(I suspected that)..brushes are about used-up...lots of brush-debris inside the starter.

The most interesting thing I noticed is that the battery A starter cable and the battery B starter cable are reversed on the starter connections(according to my schematic) :shock:

The only other minor difference is that battery A and Battery B skip the frame ground business and have a cross-over cable + to - and a small 8 or 10ga ground wire from the A battery to ground.

My left battery(battery A) has rotten connections..the small battery to ground cable is awful too....

I need to think about it...but I bet if I hook the starter cables up the 'proper' way....I'll have to re-polarize the voltage regulator.... :?:

 

[Lumbersawyer]

I converted my 4010 to twelve volt. I have all the 24 volt parts still thinking someone may want them. If your interested. Everything was good when removed.

 

[Lumbersawyer]

I converted my 4010 to twelve volt. I have all the 24 volt parts still thinking someone may want them. If your interested. Everything was good when removed.

 

[Tx Jim]

(quoted from post at 12:57:48 12/28/16)
From the factory the load from the lights were balanced.

If load on batteries on 24 volt system aren't balanced correctly the batteries WON"T maintain proper charge from generator.

 

[ET]

The jumper cable between the batteries and fuse wire ground are JD updates. Poor connections cause big problems in those systems. Those clamp on battery cable ends are a problem maker in 24V systems.

 

[buckeye al]

THAT makes perfect sense! "Sprucin" up your starter and your cables and their connections will likely fix your chronically dead left battery condition!

Your "nubby" brushes & lots of dust inside the starter alone is enough to cause what you originally described given that your starter's cables were reversed.

 

[Ragnarok]

Got my new Bendix and brushes Friday....cleaned-up the starter parts Saturday morning and assembled the starter...worked over the battery cables too.

Made sure I hooked the A battery negative cable to the starter solenoid...the B battery positive cable to the big field terminal on the side. These connections were reversed when I took it apart. I re-polarized the generator/regulator and fired my old 4010 up.

Really spins over now!....No more grinding instead of spinning the motor(I was worried about the flywheel ring-gear). The system is charging about 28.5 volts checked across the big starter terminals. Lights all work....seems normal except the starter desperately needed that new Bendix(and brushes).

We'll see how my A battery holds up. It was pretty much drained the other day....but now after getting some time charging at 2 amps seems like it's holding a charge and shows close to the right side battery B....

Thanx for the advice and info gentlemen...I may need more

 

[Tx Jim]

Congratulations on the repair & thanks for the update.
Jim