4000 starting ? (batteries)

[johndeerefan]

Since I have owned my JD 4000 diesel, it has always been a real pain to start in the winter months. My problem lays in that it only gets started about 1 time per month and ran for 15-20 minutes, so the batteries (2) 6 volts in series are always dead or weak when I go to start it. I might also be getting some voltage trickle from the voltage regulator. The batteries seem to hold better if I remove all the cables after use. I have just replaced both batteries.

My question is will changing the (2) 6 volt batteries (skinny type) wired in series, to (2) 12 volt batteries (skinny type) wired in parallel make much difference in cold starting. I fully understand it doubles the cranking amps, but do they last long enough to get it to start? Any other items I would have to change to do this?

 

[John T]

The thing is those two sixes in series adds the voltage BUT the avaialble cranking amps (whats needed to crank the engine over) does NOT add and is no greater then one of the batteries.

The two 12's in paralell the voltage remains the same HOWEVER the available amperage into that starter IS ADDITIVE i.e. if each were say 1000 CCA you now have 2000 CCA available to deliver into that starter motor

If you use two in paralell, they should be a matched pair in brand, type, size, CCA , age.

As far as how much cranking energy (volts x amps x time) ENERGY is available, its the total amp hours of available energy storage youre concerned with. But again, in series the amp hours doesnt add while in paralell it does i.e. if one battery is 100 amp hours and its wired in paralell with another of 100 amp hours, you now have 200 amp hours of energy storage.

NOTE you still have to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, for instance, while the above sounds like paralell is best IT MAY NOT BE TRUE i.e. two light duty wimpy 12's may not be better then two super duty heavy high rated 6's

So look at the batteries amp hours and CCA and then based on the technical info above you can make your choice. I just cant say sitting here what you may buy and their specs but the two 12's in paralell may well end up the best if short term but very high available CCA is what you need.

John T

 

[JDBert]

I've never delt with the skinny batteries in 12 volt- are they even available in 12 volt??

I do know- that in the 30 series and up with the normal "square" batteries that its makes a TON of difference to switch them from 2-6's in series to
2-12's in parallel.

Good grounds- heavy cables with crimped or soldered ends and good clean connections are also a good place to start.

We also put master switches on all our equipment, during storage they all get switched off which kills them right at the batteries. This seems to help with some of the problems like your having as well. Of course radios have to be reset ect. The largest reason for us doing this was because a large percentage of shed fires start with electrical issues on a piece of equipment.

 

[buickanddeere]

The batteries are always dead or low? Either there is a
current drain or the charging system is not making enough
amps and voltage to charge the batteries. The slow cranking
maybe from a hard to turn engine due to thick oil and a
dragging hydraulic pump. Or the starter voltage is low due to
low capacity batteries or high resistance connections.
For years now I have marvelled at how the typical owner or
operator of a machine with electrical problems. The owner
either does not own a multimeter . Or they would rather hold a
live rattle snake in each hand instead of a multimeter probe in
each hand.
The same person will loose days of production and pay to
randomly replace components hoping to find the defective
equipment.
Measure the system current front he batteries with the
engine off. Measure battery voltages ppst to post while
cranking. Measure voltage between starter post and starter
body while cranking.
Spend $15 on a destroker .
How about plugging in the block heater 4-6 hrs before use?
How about using a battery tender?

 

[Tx Jim]

(quoted from post at 12:10:57 12/31/12) I've never delt with the skinny batteries in 12 volt- are they even available in 12 volt??

Good grounds- heavy cables with crimped or soldered ends and good clean connections are also a good place to start.

JD engineers thought two 12V batteries were better than two 6V batteries because my 4255 cranks very well in freezing temperature with two 12V's in parallel.

 

[thurlow]

12v 'skinnies'....3EE and 3ET, iirc.

 

[JDBert]

TxJim- I should of specified that- 30 to 50 series react better to getting switched 2-12's where 55 series and up came factory that way.

Thurlow- that was a stupid question on my part- I could of just walked out into the shop and looked at the one out of the 4000 gas thats here for a total restoration-

 

[John T]

EXACTLY, In paralell the available CCA (and Amp Hrs) of those two in paralell is additive (my post below).

John T

 

[M w J]

I had just put new 6volt batteries in my 4000 I
also put on a new nippondenso starter. When it
gets cold it would turn over and just when it
would just about start the batteries would give
out. So what I did is made a battery box on the
right side and bolted it to the frame . The hot
post is the front right side .I put a truck
battery in the new battery box and hooked the
negative to the frame and the hot + to the hot
cable of the 2 6 volt batteries. so I have 2
6volts in series and added a 12 volt paraelle to
them. And It will start at 10 degrees not plugged
in and before it had to be 25 to 30 out .

 

[jcrank01]

I changed my "72 4000 from 2-6"s to 2-12"s and it made all the difference in the world. I also went to the local fleetpride and they made me the battery cables i needed instead of buying them from deere, was a lot cheaper that way. I started the tractor the other day had been sitting for almost a month and was about 30 degrees outside, rolled over twice and was running. Tractor has around 8000 hours on it.

 

[Dalet]

Plug the tractor in and when its turning over, slightly jiggle the steering wheel both directions to unload the hyd pump. :lol:

It should start right up!

 

[johndeerefan]

Thanks Jcrank01. That was the answer I was looking for.

Most of my battery problems come from the batteries going bad within 2 years or a small voltage draw from the voltage regulator. Regardless, if it is cold and the batteries haven't been charged within the past day or so, it won't start without some ether and most of the time some charger assistance.

I thought about the destoker kit, but haven't really looked into how it is installed or how to operate it. I do the steering wheel jiggle trick, but it doesn't really help that much.

As far as block heaters go, I don't like them. We have had several heaters short out and nearly catch the garage on fire in the past.

For the short term, I just replaced both 6 volt batteries. When these go bad, I will replace them with (2) 12 volt.

 

[buickanddeere]

Don't what you are doing to make coolant heaters fail? We
have heaters on all the vehicles and the tractors used in the
winter.
Would never consider beating a diesel engine with ether
and starting them cold. Broken rings and scored cylinder walls
could be part of the current cold start problems.
The destroker is not technically challenging nor expensive.
The steering wheel jiggle is just a partial farmer fix.
Have you purchased a battery maintainer yet?

 

[Tx Jim]

(quoted from post at 12:08:55 01/02/13)
The steering wheel jiggle is just a partial farmer fix.

buickanddeere
The wiggling of steering wheel while attempting to start a closed center hyd tractor was not a "farmer fix" but was taught to JD dealer service managers by JD Branch house service managers and service schools. At least this was true of the JD Dallas branch service dept.

 

[Tx Jim]

(quoted from post at 10:24:00 01/02/13)
I thought about the destoker kit, but haven't really looked into how it is installed or how to operate it. I do the steering wheel jiggle trick, but it doesn't really help that much.

The destroker screw for a hyd pump without a SN plate is parts key # 6 AR33249 SCREW

 

[johndeerefan]

So 2 questions TXJim..

1) Is it easily accessible to get to? Last time I was down near the pump area, it was tight quarters.

2) What would be the startup procedure? Open the screw and once it is running, manually close it?

 

[Tx Jim]

DS screw is accessible by removing LH screen in front of radiator. Screw DS screw down(CW),crank engine,screw DS screw CCW then hyd pump can begin pumping oil

 

[buickanddeere]

May as well push the clutch pedal down while
cranking. This will remove some rotating load.
Still need the coolant heater and the battery
maintainer.