404

[Jacobe10]

Hello, I’m restoring a 404. Just finished painting and putting everything back together. Got it to start and runs, but tried to put it in first and it won’t go because it is idling too high. It has a zenith bendix carb on it. Unsure of where to start and solve the high idle issue. Thanks you in advance.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

You should be able to shift into gear at any throttle setting. It is not because "it is idling too high" unfortunately.

The clutch is not releasing when you push the clutch pedal. If the clutch disc was put in backwards, this will happen. If the clutch is adjusted with way too much free pedal travel, it will not release. If the tractor did not go together easily when you reassembled it, the clutch could have been damaged when you forced it together with the bolts.

Please note that this is not an accusation of anything, just possible sources of your problem.

 

[used red MN]

Hello, I’m restoring a 404. Just finished painting and putting everything back together. Got it to start and runs, but tried to put it in first and it won’t go because it is idling too high. It has a zenith bendix carb on it. Unsure of where to start and solve the high idle issue. Thanks you in advance.

Hello Jacobe10, welcome to YT! I agree with Barnyard that it should shift no matter the engine RPM, the only difference is that you have to wait a bit longer for the shafts and gears to slow down and stop. If you had the transmission open you should know they don’t have synchronizers.
Disable the engine so it won’t start such as pull coil wire, put it in gear hold the clutch down and crank the starter. If the tractor wants to move the clutch is not disengaging. I think a more likely scenario is that the clutch surfaces have rusted and stuck the lined plate to them. In most clutch installation instructions it tells you to clean the surfaces free of any oil. If your tractor’s clutch has been assembled very long there is a good possibility those oil-free surfaces rusted ever so slightly and the plate stuck causing your problem. The problem increases if you live in an area with a winter climate and you don’t heat your shop area continuously. When you heat it up cold metal surfaces like those in the clutch condense moisture which accelerates rust. In this case had one known the clutch would be assembled a while it probably would have been a good idea to give the surfaces a sparing squirt of something like WD40 to help eliminate this problem. A few cycles of the clutch and that bit of lubrication would be long gone causing no trouble at all. Depending how stuck it is you may be able to free it by blocking the clutch pedal down placing the transmission in the highest gear and rock the tractor back and forth pushing and pulling on the top of the rear tires. Beyond that you may have to get it out in the open, start it in gear and get it moving in the highest gear you can get it shifted up to. Running at 1/2 throttle or more then quickly jam down both brake pedals and it my takes multiple tries. That is about the best

 

[Jacobe10]

You should be able to shift into gear at any throttle setting. It is not because "it is idling too high" unfortunately.

The clutch is not releasing when you push the clutch pedal. If the clutch disc was put in backwards, this will happen. If the clutch is adjusted with way too much free pedal travel, it will not release. If the tractor did not go together easily when you reassembled it, the clutch could have been damaged when you forced it together with the bolts.

Please note that this is not an accusation of anything, just possible sources of your problem.

That makes sense. I never messed with the clutch so I suppose maybe the previous owner could have. Unfortunately can’t ask him anymore since he passed. I will do some checks on the clutch

Hello Jacobe10, welcome to YT! I agree with Barnyard that it should shift no matter the engine RPM, the only difference is that you have to wait a bit longer for the shafts and gears to slow down and stop. If you had the transmission open you should know they don’t have synchronizers.
Disable the engine so it won’t start such as pull coil wire, put it in gear hold the clutch down and crank the starter. If the tractor wants to move the clutch is not disengaging. I think a more likely scenario is that the clutch surfaces have rusted and stuck the lined plate to them. In most clutch installation instructions it tells you to clean the surfaces free of any oil. If your tractor’s clutch has been assembled very long there is a good possibility those oil-free surfaces rusted ever so slightly and the plate stuck causing your problem. The problem increases if you live in an area with a winter climate and you don’t heat your shop area continuously. When you heat it up cold metal surfaces like those in the clutch condense moisture which accelerates rust. In this case had one known the clutch would be assembled a while it probably would have been a good idea to give the surfaces a sparing squirt of something like WD40 to help eliminate this problem. A few cycles of the clutch and that bit of lubrication would be long gone causing no trouble at all. Depending how stuck it is you may be able to free it by blocking the clutch pedal down placing the transmission in the highest gear and rock the tractor back and forth pushing and pulling on the top of the rear tires. Beyond that you may have to get it out in the open, start it in gear and get it moving in the highest gear you can get it shifted up to. Running at 1/2 throttle or more then quickly jam down both brake pedals and it my takes multiple tries. That is about the best

Thank you for the response I will do some investigating tomorrow and try what you talked about.

That tractor has sit in the shop for two years while I slowly gathered parts. But it was stored in a shed that wasn’t fully enclosed when I bought it. And who knows how long it rusted in the shed.

I didn’t believe that I had a clutch problem but I haven’t driven it yet since I bought it. I still believe I need to slow down its idle rpms but I suppose some tinkering with the carb may get that accomplished. Thank you

 

[used red MN]

That makes sense. I never messed with the clutch so I suppose maybe the previous owner could have. Unfortunately can’t ask him anymore since he passed. I will do some checks on the clutch


Thank you for the response I will do some investigating tomorrow and try what you talked about.

That tractor has sit in the shop for two years while I slowly gathered parts. But it was stored in a shed that wasn’t fully enclosed when I bought it. And who knows how long it rusted in the shed.

I didn’t believe that I had a clutch problem but I haven’t driven it yet since I bought it. I still believe I need to slow down its idle rpms but I suppose some tinkering with the carb may get that accomplished. Thank you

There should be an idle stop screw on the carburetor throttle lever that sets the idle speed. However, the manufacturers parts catalog shows a MARVEL-SCHEBLER TSX 748 as the original carburetor on that tractor. This link to the catalog shows the idle stop screw as number 44.
CNHI IH 404 parts catalog
I know there were some replacement Zenith carbs so likely that is what you have. If the idle screw doesn’t allow adjustment of the idle to a proper speed with the throttle lever in the slowest speed position then the throttle linkage and governor will have to be adjusted or repaired per a service manual.
That link will allow you to see all the parts sections for your tractor. I think if you view it on a PC that is pretty self explanatory. However on a phone you have to click on the 404 International Trac.. to the right of the Home icon. This allows you to see the list of “Functional Groups” and then choose the appropriate subsection to view within each. You have just identified your tractor as a 404, there was two different models made a utility model with International on the hood sides and also a row crop model with Farmall on the sides. Which do you have? The parts catalog I linked is for the International 404 utility.

 

[rustred]

Hello, I’m restoring a 404. Just finished painting and putting everything back together. Got it to start and runs, but tried to put it in first and it won’t go because it is idling too high. It has a zenith bendix carb on it. Unsure of where to start and solve the high idle issue. Thanks you in advance.

Were these problems there before u took stuff apart. Be nice to have a bit of history as how it was before and if you had the tractor split ? Clutches must be adjusted to have free play so the throw out brg. Is not turning when at w o t. Or u will just wear the brg out. Oil on the disc will cause a jumpy clutch and hard shifting. Tractor should be idling at 400 rpm. So if you were playing around with linkage that maybe the problem. Plus there is a slow idle screw on carb to adjust.follow the throttle linkage to carb , should be an adjustment there. Plus there is the governor adjustment also but that’s another thing. So if the screw won’t slow it down then it’s time to dig deeper. Plus I have no idea on how fast you saying it’s running. Shifting gears is aways at slow idle. Even at higher idle it still should shift though.

 

[Jacobe10]

Were these problems there before u took stuff apart. Be nice to have a bit of history as how it was before and if you had the tractor split ? Clutches must be adjusted to have free play so the throw out brg. Is not turning when at w o t. Or u will just wear the brg out. Oil on the disc will cause a jumpy clutch and hard shifting. Tractor should be idling at 400 rpm. So if you were playing around with linkage that maybe the problem. Plus there is a slow idle screw on carb to adjust.follow the throttle linkage to carb , should be an adjustment there. Plus there is the governor adjustment also but that’s another thing. So if the screw won’t slow it down then it’s time to dig deeper. Plus I have no idea on how fast you saying it’s running. Shifting gears is aways at slow idle. Even at higher idle it still should shift though.

I haven’t split the tractor since owning it but I did take apart the governor and replace the bearing inside. I was very careful to replace and put back exactly the way I took it apart.

I put in new sleeves and pistons but after getting it to run after all that work Its been sitting. Once I got the engine to turn over and run for a bit I never messed with it since now. When it started the first time. I had nothing on the motor. Just manipulating the carb by hand and I don’t remember the idle being as high as it is now

 

[used red MN]

I haven’t split the tractor since owning it but I did take apart the governor and replace the bearing inside. I was very careful to replace and put back exactly the way I took it apart.

I put in new sleeves and pistons but after getting it to run after all that work Its been sitting. Once I got the engine to turn over and run for a bit I never messed with it since now. When it started the first time. I had nothing on the motor. Just manipulating the carb by hand and I don’t remember the idle being as high as it is now

Do you have a repair manual for this tractor? I would highly recommend this for you, especially since you seem to have limited knowledge about the working’s of your tractor. This is shown by you getting it started and have a high idle yet you don’t report checking any of the basic things that are involved with the engine speed control system. Here is a link to the YT manuals offered for your tractor. I would suggest at least getting the I&T manual, it is sort of a “cliff notes” repair manual. IH 404 manuals from YT An operator’s manual is also nearly an essential item to have for your tractor.
The IH “Blue Ribbon” repair manual would be the most comprehensive manual for your tractor but YT doesn’t list it, I have some recommendations for where to be I won’t give it out here due to the competition factor with out YT host. I will only give you a hint that creek is in the name. You can also explore vendors that offer downloadable manuals if you don’t mind going that route. I will caution you that if you seek out a free downloadable manual quite often bad folks like to use that avenue to dump viruses into your computer.
If you want other recommendations for purchasing manuals I would be happy to have a conversation with you in a (private) Direct Message.

 

[trackrat]

I believe the 404 has a c135 motor in it very simple motor simple tractor had one for years idle speed can be annoying but you can shift gears the same, clutch is likely stuck

 

[JoeRock]

I can confirm that you should be able to shift at any engine RPM assuming the clutch is disengaging as it should.

If it's not, then as others suggested, disable the ignition and try starting the tractor with the clutch pedal depressed and the transmission in gear.

If the tractor moves, there is a clutch or clutch mechanism problem.

There are 3 (?) counter sunk head style bolts that are critical to the disengagement mechanism. Even if only one is broken, you will not be able to shift properly or disengage the clutch.

 

[Jacobe10]

Hello All, thank you for replying to my post. After reading all of the suggestions I have more information for anyone still watching this thread. I have solved the high idle issue by adjusting my carb linkage and have it idling much slower to where the rain cap hardly moves. I can shift into any gears a lot better now. But 3rd and 4th have a bit of a grind before they go in.

I haven’t split the tractor so I have no idea how the clutch surface is or anything else. It is unclear of how long the tractor has sat before driving it. The individual that I bought it from is 25 and has never seen it run. I can assume there is some rust within the clutch surfaces that can potentially be giving me issues.

I do have a shop manual and am reading through it. I have some experience tinkering with the old tractors but working with the clutch is something new to me as you all can tell.

My first post the tractor was still on jacks and not moving, but I have now since took it for a drive and here is new information.

Off and on when releasing the clutch in any gear there is an awful noise coming from the clutch. As I drove it going through the gears it became less and less but still present. I do believe the clutch is disengaging because I started the tractor in gear with the clutch depressed and it did not move. I have also adjusted to give the pedal the proper amount of free play from our dealer mechanics recommendation of roughly two inches but that did not change anything. I am going to try wd40 on the clutch surface and rock the tractor as someone suggested.
Hopefully those solve my issues and anyone can understand what I’m doing and attempting to thank you

 

[used red MN]

I am going to try wd40 on the clutch surface and rock the tractor as someone suggested.
Hopefully those solve my issues and anyone can understand what I’m doing and attempting to thank you

These efforts will be in vain, those are only recommendations in the case that your lined clutch plate was stuck to the metal mating surfaces of the flywheel and pressure plate. When you started it in gear with the clutch pushed down and it didn’t move you proved that wasn’t your problem. These tractors do not have synchronized gears like a manual transmission car has. Synchronizers are small clutch type items in the trans that cause the transmission shafts and gears to match there speeds and shift without grinding. If you idle the tractor put it in gear then shift back to neutral; then put it back in gear in a second or two holding the clutch down the entire time and the transmission doesn’t grind when you return the shifter into gear the clutch is releasing fine.