450D issue

[Dave Westlund]

My neighbors International 450 has issues. Here's is what I know.

1. To start the tractor a person must have the clutch pressed down

2. If they try to start the tractor with the clutch out the starter will engage but engine won't turn over.

3. TA is out in both the low and high side

There trying to get this tractor working back in the field the most economical way. Very few dollars in this household

Thank you for your time.

 

[caterpillar guy]

If it is definitely out both high and low it is split time to fix this will be a double split too . I believe for this job. I'm more familiar with the 06 series and up.

 

[tractorsam]

If the engine will turn over only when the clutch pedal is
depressed, it sounds like the transmission is locked in
two gears at the same time. Does the tractor roll if
towed?

 

[Dave Westlund]

TractorSam sir, I don't if the tractor rolls. I'll ask and reply back when I have an answer. Thank you for your reply.

 

[buzzinduzzin]

as far as two gears at once just remove the three bolts that hold the transmission shift lever housing & lift shift lever & hsg. out together & then reach down in there with a prybar & put the rails back in
neutral position, then install shift lever back in neutral position . my 450 shifts easier if you pull back on TA lever before trying to shift gears

 

[Janicholson]

In two gears at once, and the TA may not be broken at all. it certainly works in direct drive. TA adjustment and shifter repair. Google Farmall H shifter tip Images. a diagram with correct sizes will appear. Jim

 

[rustred]

as said u are stuck in 2 gears. ta could be out in the low side but not high side. them tractors run forever with only direct drive. dont
need the TA nor waste money to fix it.

 

[Dave Westlund]

To All,

The person I had the conversation within regards to this 450D is not the owner (he's the 2nd party) but is very knowledgeable farmer/repair person and helps the owner when he can.

We did not discuss the possibility of the shifter jumping out/jammed in two gears.

Our conversation on lines around the TA which I know nothing about and what's the lowest cost repair assuming it was the TA.

I'll share your thoughts today with the mechanic. Please stay tuned.

 

[D Slater]

Both can be out. Learned that the hard buying a tractor at auction. Would run round on level. Attempt to load on trailer resulted in T/A out and T/A clutch so bad it slipped enough to not go up ramps onto trailer.

 

[used red MN]

In addition to what tractorsam posted, the gear shift
should be able to be placed in all 6 gears with the
engine stopped and the clutch pressed down if
everything is correct with the shifter, see diagram in
the linked post. If the tractor does not roll free and the
gearshift appears to be in neutral you need to suspect
that it is stuck in a gear. If there is any question pull
the 3 bolts that hold the shifter to the trans cover and
check. A man with good mechanical knowledge should
know what to look for but I am including a photo of
proper alignment of the shift forks. The photo is of an
unknown utility model but the ..trench.. I call it formed
by the alignment of the shift rails in the neutral
position looks the same The TA repair cost will be very
dependent on what is wrong. A quick check shows a
rebuilt unit that contains the parts that normally fail for
LO side operation listed for $800. But there maybe
additional parts needed for the direct clutch along with
other bearings etc. There is a possibility that
something has failed in the TA and is locking it up,
though that is an unusual failure. In addition one other
thing your mechanic friend should know, on those TAs.
Per design with the clutch out the TA will not let the
engine rotate backwards from its normal rotation.

Post with shift pattern

 

[rustred]

i am not understanding why u would not pull the shifter then get a surprise and say geez that was an easy fix. from your first description it
leads to stuck in 2 gears. and its a 5 minute job to pull the 3 shifter bolts. then if its not that continue on. we give good suggestions
that should be followed then report back.

 

[Dave Westlund]

Hi, All,


I visited the owner today and asked the questions about the shifting and we confirmed that with the clutch depressed the tractor shifts into all gears. They did roll it into their shed late last winter and hasn't move since that time. That should eliminate the possibility of the shifting rails or shifting lever being the any part of the issue. Correct?

She said the T/A has never worked. I've never used one. if you push the T/A forward then the tractor is in high range, pull it back and it's in low range? Since it never worked she wasn't sure.

I'm going to look back into the responses on this post and see if I missed something I should have asked her.

 

[Janicholson]

The TA transfers power directly through the shafts into the main 5 speed transmission when the handle is forward. Just like if
it was an Farmall M. with the TA back, a small clutch is released allowing the engine to turn the transmission through a gear
set. This reduces the engine RPM about 30% into the 5 speed. The gear set is stationary when in reduction, and spins when in
direct. There is a one way (sprag) clutch that locks the gear set housing from turning backwards when in reduction. The most
common failure is this one way clutch, The smaller front clutch for direct drive (not the engine clutch) can also fail, as can
the gears in the TA unit. None of these things that fail cause the TA to be unable to turn in the forward direction. This
indicates to me that:
If it still rolls freely forward and back when in neutral (TA forward or back) the final drives and output shaft from the
transmission are OK.
If it will not move when in any gear with the foot clutch pushed down, the transmission(5 speed) has gear or shaft, or bearing
problems locking it up. This would cause the engine to not crank if the clutch was not pushed down, as well as not allowing the
tractor to be rolled. Jim

 

[used red MN]

This is long but I think it lays out everything that I
would do prior to determining the tractor has to be
split to finalize diagnosing the problem.

To avoid doing a lot of things for nothing first double
check the gearshift.. locked in two gears thing. When
gearshift is in the neutral position where it can be
moved side to side make sure the tractor rolls freely,
then move the gearshift into any gear. Then as is
obvious the mesh of gears should now not allow the
tractor to be able to be rolled. It is a good idea to
actually place it in all the following gears and test for
locking and free movement in neutral, reverse, 1st, 3rd
and 5th. For those that are wondering why, this will
help verify that a shift fork has not broken off and fell
into the gears on the trans bottom shaft and somehow
locked them. Now again put it in neutral and verify it
again rolls free. Now start the tractor and test letting
the clutch out to verify it kills or drags the engine down
and will not move. Now pull the TA lever back and try
letting out the clutch, hopefully you will verify that it is
still locking and the results are the same, turn engine
off. Now block the clutch pedal down and leave the TA
lever back, place the transmission in 5th gear shifter to
the right and pull back towards the seat. Now put a
man on each rear tire and with all your might rock the
tractor back and forth against the slack in the drive
train and see if you can get it to break free, make sure
the brake is not set If no result proceed by doing this
which is kind of just for giggles, remove the TA dry
clutch cover. In the attached link go to Chassis and
subsection 267, key 8. Keeping the clutch blocked
down and TA lever back and trans in neutral pry on the
clutch section in there to see if it will turn. Look around
in there for broken parts that may be jamming up the
mechanism. Particularly looking on the front side
where the throw out bearing is, work the TA lever back
and forth to check for anything peculiar. If nothing is
found there I would move on to removal of the belt
pulley drive under the fuel tank if it has one. If not
remove the block off plate, refer to Chassis and
subsection 281, key 16. Now this may let you see the
actual problem, which is something that almost has to
be a bearing is locking the shaft that the gear closest
to the front sets on. If that seems to have some
rotating movement then it may be the lower
transmission shaft has locked, again pry trying to turn
the top shaft looking for any movement of the bottom
shaft. If that seems to be free you may actually be
looking at a very unusual failure. Refer back to the link
subsection 267 again and remove plate key 6. This is a
last ditch effort to see something out of the ordinary.
The section in the front is the PTO drive gears. The
actual shaft that the machine clutch ..pedal.. drives is
inside the hollow area of the gears driving the PTO, so
really nothing can be seen in that area but check for
any oddity. The rear section is the actual TA reduction
section. I am not sure but I believe as JANich said a
failure in there would just turn everything as a unit and
the tractor would just drive in direct range. These
things are built by humans and are not perfect so just
about any unthinkable failure is possible. From this
point you will need to split it for further diagnosis.
CNHI Farmall 450 parts diagrams