460 Gas running hot - temps?

[AC_IH_MF]

I use my 460 for mowing with a 7 foot flail. It works well and run it at half to 2/3 throttle. The temp will climb though after running for a while up to 230 but doesn't boil over. I replaced the water pump and tstat and gauge last year and also used an auto parts store flush.

Can't really find what the water temp should be but seems around 200-210 would be safe.

I don't think I'm running it too hard for it to run that hot and I'm using 3 or 4th gear so plenty of air flow. I did check and replace the belt so its not slipping and the rad does have the shroud in place.

I'm hoping with an good flush and wetting agent will be enough to bring the temps down a little. I have two pounds of oxalic acid coming and will first flush with some cleaners/dishwasher tabs.


I did check the timing last year which was off and that did help some and have changed the hydraulic filter 4 times now which kept plugging at first running the pump hard.

 

[J.Wondergem]

If it will run at 230 degrees and don't boil, I'd be checking it with a reliable gauge.

 

[AC_IH_MF]

A 5# cap would put it closer to 230 without boiling. I believe the gauge is accurate, it matched the guess-o-meter that was on it before.

One thing that I didn't verify is the lower rad hose collapsing under high RPM. I can't recall if it has the spring in it or not.

 

[the tractor vet]

That is a WEEEEE BIT WARM . What plugs are you running ??? , what is the ing. timing set at , it is to be set at wide open throttle for full advance . Is the centrif. advance in side the dist woking or is it STUCK or slow acting as many do not know that Oh every so often one should pop the rotor off and put a few drops of OIL down on the felt under the rotor . Now i know the know it alls are gong to burn me at the stake on this BUT If ya have the owners manual one should READ FUEL REQUIREMENTS . Change your gas your usen . What works in todays cars does not work in YESTERDAY'S tractors , yea ya can get away with it on old H and M , BUT not in stuff built after 58 . we have fought fuel issues on gas tractors longer then Most have owned a tractor on here . i owned a 460 GAS at one time and i take care of one 460 gas that has been on the same farm since new and we have fought issue with it till i got it thru his hard head to get better GAS and throw out the D 21 Plugs. along with not having to pull the head once a year for burnt valves. I had issues with the one Combine i had running HOT , we did it all , water pump changed that to a higher flow pump , you could do that since it was a 225 slant six Chrysler engine most don't know they offered a high flow pump for A/C equiped cars and pick ups . had the rad rebuilt , changed fans , did the timing did the carb and fattened it up a little by means of a larger main jet where on a 460 all that takes is back the main screw out to FIVE turns off the seat . And nothing i did helped as i was tryen to be CHEAP and BUY CHEAP GAS . Out of a fluke while at a sale Out of state i snagged two 110 gallon fuel tanks with pumps for a few bucks and on the way home i stopped to fill the pick up as gas out there was like 25 cents a gallon cheaper and OH wait what is this FARM GAS for a Lot cheaper , so the pick up got what i normally use and i filled both those 110 gallon tanks with FARM gas . That went into my combine and with just the change in gas now the engine on it was running under 200 . I have friends out that way and i asked one of them what was with the FARM gas at the truck stops and he told me that 1 no tax . and 2 higher octane . Now as for us around here the best we can get in straight gas is 90 and what they call 93 with ak-ki-hol . 460-560 min. fuel octane requirement is 89 MIN. . Other things that can cause over heating is leaking head gskt or cracked head our and upper cylinder wall crack , a bottom rad hose being sucked in and restricting flow . Restricted air flow thru the rad , One can change the fan blade to the one used on the diesel engine one can change to the diesel rad . But for me to do the CHEAP way out is (1) open the main load screw up (2) see what spark plugs are in it (3) check Ing Timing and set to the BOOK , Make sure your air filter is clean .(4) Make sure you can SEE thru the fins on the rad. and (5) try a tank of better gas, . 87 Burns HOTTER for emission , this does not come from me but the lab where we had some gas tested.

 

[AC_IH_MF]

(quoted from post at 13:34:03 05/04/23) That is a WEEEEE BIT WARM . What plugs are you running ??? , what is the ing. timing set at , it is to be set at wide open throttle for full advance . Is the centrif. advance in side the dist woking or is it STUCK or slow acting as many do not know that Oh every so often one should pop the rotor off and put a few drops of OIL down on the felt under the rotor . Now i know the know it alls are gong to burn me at the stake on this BUT If ya have the owners manual one should READ FUEL REQUIREMENTS . Change your gas your usen . What works in todays cars does not work in YESTERDAY'S tractors , yea ya can get away with it on old H and M , BUT not in stuff built after 58 . we have fought fuel issues on gas tractors longer then Most have owned a tractor on here . i owned a 460 GAS at one time and i take care of one 460 gas that has been on the same farm since new and we have fought issue with it till i got it thru his hard head to get better GAS and throw out the D 21 Plugs. along with not having to pull the head once a year for burnt valves. I had issues with the one Combine i had running HOT , we did it all , water pump changed that to a higher flow pump , you could do that since it was a 225 slant six Chrysler engine most don't know they offered a high flow pump for A/C equiped cars and pick ups . had the rad rebuilt , changed fans , did the timing did the carb and fattened it up a little by means of a larger main jet where on a 460 all that takes is back the main screw out to FIVE turns off the seat . And nothing i did helped as i was tryen to be CHEAP and BUY CHEAP GAS . Out of a fluke while at a sale Out of state i snagged two 110 gallon fuel tanks with pumps for a few bucks and on the way home i stopped to fill the pick up as gas out there was like 25 cents a gallon cheaper and OH wait what is this FARM GAS for a Lot cheaper , so the pick up got what i normally use and i filled both those 110 gallon tanks with FARM gas . That went into my combine and with just the change in gas now the engine on it was running under 200 . I have friends out that way and i asked one of them what was with the FARM gas at the truck stops and he told me that 1 no tax . and 2 higher octane . Now as for us around here the best we can get in straight gas is 90 and what they call 93 with ak-ki-hol . 460-560 min. fuel octane requirement is 89 MIN. . Other things that can cause over heating is leaking head gskt or cracked head our and upper cylinder wall crack , a bottom rad hose being sucked in and restricting flow . Restricted air flow thru the rad , One can change the fan blade to the one used on the diesel engine one can change to the diesel rad . But for me to do the CHEAP way out is (1) open the main load screw up (2) see what spark plugs are in it (3) check Ing Timing and set to the BOOK , Make sure your air filter is clean .(4) Make sure you can SEE thru the fins on the rad. and (5) try a tank of better gas, . 87 Burns HOTTER for emission , this does not come from me but the lab where we had some gas tested.

Thank you for your detailed response.

I did try 93 octane last year and don't believe it made a difference so I went down the cooling system/timing route.

I can't recall timing settings but I did check total timing at high idle as I found online. If you know off-hand can you remind me I will verify its correct. It was off a good bit as the distro was loose - this was an auction tractor but has all new internals.

I should specify that this is the Utility model so no fuel screw, I did buy another carb with screw but need to rebuild it yet.

No air filter - oil bath with fresh 30w.

Rad fins were clean - pressure washed them last year.

Plugs, don't recall the # but can check tonight.

It takes an hour or two for the temp to climb like that.

Maybe I'm just running it too hard or should it handle 2/3 throttle? I try not to lug it and use the TA on the rolling hills.

What would you call safe operating temps?

 

[the tractor vet]

Engine ing. timing should be between 29 and 31 Degrees BTDC, at 1800 engine RPM according to my book. When doing PTo work of tillage you should be running PTO speed . Now it has been a long time since i had a 460 i don't remember where PTO speed came in on the tach. . But mine was not bare bones stock either as i had made a few changes . I was not happy with that tractor , It replaced my 450 D and my figuring that it should perform close to the 450 i was wrong . Soooooo when this guy came to look at it as he heard i had one i would sell and he showed up on the coldest day of the year just as the Blizzard of 78 was just starting to wind down what he was concerned would it start in -35 degree weather setting out side in a five foot snow drift in 30to 50 MPH Winds . Even with 30 weight oil in it it stated , it was not happy about it but it started and ran . To complete the deal i had to throw in my heat houser and he wanted it DELIVERED NOW . Not sayen i wanted rid of it but we spent a half hour digging to find the trailer and it was loaded and headed 25 miles south . He had to settle on driving it the last three miles across open fields that were not drifted in . It's still floating around here somewhere . Easy to find as the S/N was 571 70th 460 built.

 

[AC_IH_MF]

(quoted from post at 19:50:53 05/04/23) Engine ing. timing should be between 29 and 31 Degrees BTDC, at 1800 engine RPM according to my book. When doing PTo work of tillage you should be running PTO speed . Now it has been a long time since i had a 460 i don't remember where PTO speed came in on the tach. . But mine was not bare bones stock either as i had made a few changes . I was not happy with that tractor , It replaced my 450 D and my figuring that it should perform close to the 450 i was wrong . Soooooo when this guy came to look at it as he heard i had one i would sell and he showed up on the coldest day of the year just as the Blizzard of 78 was just starting to wind down what he was concerned would it start in -35 degree weather setting out side in a five foot snow drift in 30to 50 MPH Winds . Even with 30 weight oil in it it stated , it was not happy about it but it started and ran . To complete the deal i had to throw in my heat houser and he wanted it DELIVERED NOW . Not sayen i wanted rid of it but we spent a half hour digging to find the trailer and it was loaded and headed 25 miles south . He had to settle on driving it the last three miles across open fields that were not drifted in . It's still floating around here somewhere . Easy to find as the S/N was 571 70th 460 built.

I think its 1850rpm/540, I should remember I just got done running it for 3 hours straight.

Only ran up to 205-210 but its only 55-60 out today. I did add cascade to the rad to clean, then will run the oxalic this weekend, flush/nuetralize then add new coolant and see.

Plugs are Autolite 386.

It does start well, crack the throttle, crank and throttle back. Rarely ever needs choke.

 

[rustred]

Sounds like u went through things. But if the rad cores
are plugged inside these flushes do little. It needs to be
taken to a rad shop and have it hot tanked , meaning soak
ed in a hot caustic solution to dissolve that calcium build
up. Sure u can play around with it but a rad shop does it
properly once. Plus it will cost u money. Get a heat gun
and verify the temp also first. It should be running under
200 degrees as your not on a hard load.

 

[the tractor vet]

Ah NO now days ya don't need to take it to a rad shop . Call me CHEAP and i don't like being scammed . qand taken to the CLEANERS . Ya can go on Amazon and get a product that will clean it at home . It i a product from Iron tight Spelling may be wrong . Several years back out of desperation i bought a car for the WAR DEPT due to transmissio9n issues with our old trusty Dodge Durango . The War Dept . works for Girl Scouts and at the time she had four countys to cover a week . At the time i had visions of a major trans rebuild and due to NOT having a nice car lift i knew also due to AGE i was NOT going to be able to do a one day trans rebuild as i did in my youth in a dealership . Well this Prime ride that i bought three days after i bought it problems started to raise there UGLY head and the fight was on to keep this Dodge AVENGER going . As the weather turned cold so did the inside the car . Seams that some Yawho used the wrong antifreeze in it and it plugged the heater core . To change the heater core ya had to tear the whole dash apart drain the A/C to R & R the heater gore . Not something i wanted to do due to OLD age . So i asked a FRIEND at a local GOAT store and he said even cutting me a HUGE break we were looking at over 1200 Bucks Normal was closer to 2 K . Nope ain't happen . Soooooo i started digging and i came up with this nasty Iron tight stuff came up with a little barn yard engineering with two Hose clamp pliers one elcheapo drill powered PUMP some 5/8th tubing some hose clamps a 2 1/2 gallon plastic bucket and 2 1/2 gallon of boiling water and a hour of my time and cleared the junk in the heater core .Total investment under a hundred bucks . Ya get a about a Pint bottle of this stuff for around 32 bucks . . First ya want to drain and flush all antifreeze then ya put that stuff to work . On a rad i would remove it and lay it down and Plumb up to use one of them drill powered pumps and do a reverse flow . The KEY here is keeping the stuff HOT . Cat also has some Stuff to clean a cooling system that you add to the whole system with out a T / Sat and you cover the rad and allow the engine to run at 200 to 225 degrees for one hour . I had and issue with a 3406 E 550 Hp engine in a 9400 I H eagle . That job took the better part of a half day but it solved the problem . We had that 550 Cat turned up to over 750 Hp. as i was hauling the Big ugly oversized loads and never under 125000 lbs and as high as 250000 lbs . It saved buying a new Rad for it and them puppy's are NOT CHEAP . Now today one has and issue of finding a HONEST Rad shop . The OLD guys are dead and gone , now ya got the ones that want to get filthy rich on each job .

 

[Jim.ME]

You may have done this, but I don't see in any of your posts that you have blown out, or otherwise cleaned, the exterior of the radiator. You say it has good air flow. Can you see through the fins and tubes around the entire core? If air isn't passing through the core, it won't matter how much you clean the interior. You can use a temp gun on the outside to look for hot spots (plugging) in the core.

 

[caterpillar guy]

Without blowing the core out on the outside you can clean,flush and fool around till the cows come home. Blow out the front till you can see a light through from the back side it will then run cool like it is supposed to around 180.

 

[AC_IH_MF]

(quoted from post at 07:24:42 05/05/23) Without blowing the core out on the outside you can clean,flush and fool around till the cows come home. Blow out the front till you can see a light through from the back side it will then run cool like it is supposed to around 180.

Cleaned and pressure washed last year so its clean.

I thought the tstat is 190 so it should run 190+.

I'd rather fool around with chems than take it out, have the rad shop charge me a boat load and then not guarantee their work. I've already called around when I had another brass rad leak after a thorough cleaning.

Oxalic acid does work, this is what is used back in the day and there are countless reports. That is if the rad has some deposits and there is corrosion, which looks like mine does have.

I may simply need a few more HP for what I'm trying to do.

 

[AC_IH_MF]

Yup, pressure washed it last year.

It only run at most 210 last night but it was only 55-60 out but I was mowing pretty fast in 3rd and 4th gear, using the TA when RPMs would drop.

Running 3 hours with dish detergent in the rad its brownish colored so it is cleaning. Saturday will be the acid flush then see how things are.

 

[ss55]

Dumb question:
Would it be better to run at full PTO speed and shift to a lower gear to decrease the ground speed rather than lug the engine at part throttle? The engine's fan and water would be spinning faster to pull more air through the radiator and circulate the coolant better.

 

[AC_IH_MF]

(quoted from post at 10:30:09 05/05/23) Dumb question:
Would it be better to run at full PTO speed and shift to a lower gear to decrease the ground speed rather than lug the engine at part throttle? The engine's fan and water would be spinning faster to pull more air through the radiator and circulate the coolant better.

Yes, but that would involve stopping, shifting then on flat/downhill shifting again. I'd have a clutch worn out in a year. with TA pulled back there is very little lugging.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

My radiator shop had to get rid of their hot caustic tank due to EPA regulations. All they can do is stick a pressure washer nozzle down the neck anymore.

 

[AC_IH_MF]

(quoted from post at 14:12:41 05/05/23) My radiator shop had to get rid of their hot caustic tank due to EPA regulations. All they can do is stick a pressure washer nozzle down the neck anymore.

I can do that much. Thats why I'm going the oxalic acid route, plus I don't have to remove the entire rad, pay them to potentially poke holes in, which I can do.

 

[ss55]

How about just staying in in the lower gear and running at full PTO speed all the time? Excessive lugging under a heavy load may be what is causing your overheating problem.

 

[AC_IH_MF]

90% of my running is at 1/2 to 2/3 throttle, no lugging at all. I can run pto speed and higher with it still running hot.

I'll validate timing again and then see if rad flush helps any and go from there I suppose.

 

[Brownie450]

I'd run a 180 degree stat in it. Don't know
for sure, but didn't they come from the factory
with a 180?
Jim