49ish 8n Starting issue

[Sneakymedic]

Hello guys. Im struggling with my 8n. Front dist. 12 volt conversion. New cables, new battery. The tractor will not do anything when the switch is turned, but, if I jump the tractor off with jumper cables, it fires right up. So I am not an electrician, but assume that it is the key switch (which seems to work fine when it is being jumped from another vehicle) or the solenoid.

The tractor had sat for about a year, and I am trying to get her fired back up.

Now that I type that out, it seems like it must be the solenoid.

What say the experts?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Mike.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Assuming you have the oem ignition switch, (do you?) the key switch has nothing to do with the starter. If the tractor runs w/ the key on after you jump it, there is nothing wrong w/ the switch.

Google "wiring diagrams JMOR" for the correct diagram for your tractor.

Yes, you could have a defective solenoid. You could also have poor grounds on those new cables. Or a faulty thumb switch on top of the transmission. Or, an improperly wired solenoid.


Best check all the possibilities before you start buying parts.
75 Tips

 

[Sneakymedic]

I was hoping you would see this post, since I had already read your "formally 50, now 75 tips" HAHAHAHA. Those are good tips, and thanks for posting them.

So, I currently just have the "keyed ignition switch" and the thumb button is not being used. I want to say that the grounds are ok, as I bought the new cable, and have the mounted to a clean spot on the steering box.

Yes, after the tractor is jumped, it runs great. Pull it back in the shed, turn it off. Turn key back to start?.dead nuts. nothing.

I guess Im confused how the jumping the tractor off works, ie. allows the switch to turn the motor over with cables attached to the battery, but the ignition switch alone does not. That question is for my own edification and education on electronics.

I would assume I have a bad solenoid. Wiring them are pretty simple and in my wheelhouse. (well, reading directions are in my wheelhouse)

I appreciate your help

Mike

 

[HFJ]

the ignition switch should only have two positions - off and on. its only function is to provide current to the coil. it should have nothing to do with the starter.

was the thumb button bypassed with an automotive-style ignition setup?

 

[Den N Ms]

Sneakymedic,I suggest that you get a new OEM 3 pole type solenoid for your starter and hook your thumb start button back up.The small post on the solenoid just uses the thumb switch for a ground to energize the solenoid.That will give you back the neutral safety start feature that is needed so no one gets run over and hurt. A OEM on off key switch would be a good idea also.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

" I currently just have the "keyed ignition switch" and the thumb button is not being used."

There are two problems with that set up.

First, it's a good way to kill yourself or someone else. See tip # 28.

Secondly, the immediate problem you have is a problem in a non-oem wiring set up that isn't going to be easily diagnosed over the internet. That's because there are at least 6 different ways that your tractor can be wired.....and work correctly. And yours doesn't.

So, grab your multi-meter and get that wiring diagram I suggested and find the problem.
75 Tips

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Amen.
75 Tips

 

[Sneakymedic]

It was. It was done with the 12 volt conversion kit. Currently the thumb switch is not in play.

 

[Sneakymedic]

So, does the wire from the small pole just connect to the thumb switch? I remember where a wire could attach on the side.

Again, for my own edification, the safety aspect of it?.. Why is a thumb switch better than a keyed switch? I would assume both of them would be if you were standing beside the tractor attempting to crank it. As we shouldnt do.

 

[Sneakymedic]

found the diagrams. Im going to work on it tomorrow?.I will advise what I find.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Please do.

And do give some consideration to wiring the thumb switch up and using a 3 pole solenoid.
75 Tips

 

[Bill M. From Illinois]

I can attest to the danger of a bypassed safety switched. Easy start 8n that I bought was wired without safety and damned near ran me over and then I had to chase it down. I wasted no time fixing it correctly. It's too easy to forget to check that it's in neutral .

 

[HFJ]

the thumb button incorporates a neutral start safety system. an automotive start setup will allow the tractor to start in gear.

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley]

Sneak-
First, welcome to the party. Good advice given by Bruce(VA) and others. Bypassing the Neutral Safety Starter Switch Button is unwise and an accident waiting to happen, possibly fatal. It doesn?t matter what the prior owner did, it is your tractor now and your responsibility to ensure that all is right with it especially any safety concerns. Get copies of JMOR?s Wiring Pictograms and using these OEM wiring diagrams, and your VOM, go thru the entire wiring to verify it is all correct. A ?49 8N will have the front mount distributor. Is this what you have? If so, is your coil 6V or 12V? If 6V, is there an external, 1-OHM ceramic resistor added in line? Is the OEM Ballast Resistor in the circuit? Verify wiring via CONTINUITY, set on your VOM, not with an idiot test light. Those require power and you don?t want to be testing with power in the circuit. You simply want to verify that the wiring is connected from point A to point B as it is supposed to be. DO NOT USE WIRING COLORS. Unless you have an exact-as-original wiring harness installed, or even the OEM harness, and even so, does not ensure it is all wired correctly. Colors do not conduct electrons. Start here:

FORD OEM 6V/POS GRN WIRING DIAGRAMS ?FRONT MOUNT SETUP:

NOTE: This is the OEM 6V/POS GRN setup. Your 12V setup will be different (see PICTOGRAMS). The Generator and Voltage Regulator will be removed from a12V job and replaced with an alternator. No other OEM parts are disconnected or removed! The wiring will be changed around slightly as well.

Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)

 

[a32vickyhotrod]

(quoted from post at 16:09:33 12/10/18) if I jump the tractor off with jumper cables, it fires right up.
Mike.

You say it starts if jumped with a another vehicle, so I would be looking at my new battery as not having the voltage to get the job done. I would be also looking at your battery cable connections at the battery posts. Don't trust that they look good, clean them anyway, they can fool anyone by how they look. I would also bring that new battery in to get it load tested. Load testing is the only way to tell if a battery is up to the task at hand. It doesn't matter that it is a new battery, it can still be defective.

 

[Sneakymedic]

So today I took the JFOR schematics and gave mine a once over. I found a few things and fixed them. Thanks for that link and advice. It was helpful.

I also cleaned the starter and the solenoid faces for a better ground. So this tractor cranked and started before, it has me stumped. I did buy a new solenoid today, and installed it. All it does is click now. Still wont turn over. Battery fully charged. I didn't try to jump it off cause its freezing out and wind at 15kts.

So, on the ignition switch….There are posts for ACC, IGN, middle post is ST, and Batt. I have to figure out the correct connections there.

That is my sad SITREP for the evening. LOL[/img]

 

[oldtanker]

OK on a standard automotive ignition switch the starter terminal energizes the solenoid. On the 8N solenoid turning the ignition switch energizes the solenoid but the solenoid doesn't function until it's circuit is completed by grounding it with the thumb switch.

So if you put a stock type solenoid on it the aftermarket automotive switch's starter terminal on the switch should not be used. The energize the solenoid you need to have some type of switch between the ground terminal to ground.

Rick

 

[Sneakymedic]

The one thing I have not done is to take the starter loose and wirebrush the contact between the starter and the transmission casing. This tractor has been outside for a few months due to a project in the barn. It could have gotten some rust between the two. I will try this tomorrow night. I will probably buy a 'new" two wire key switch and run a wire to the thumb button on the tranny. Im sure the key switch I have would work, but I dont know where all the connections go.

 

[HFJ]

sneaky, are u absolutely sure your battery is not the culprit? who many volts does it read on a voltmeter?

 

[HFJ]

how many volts would also be useful, in addition to who many

 

[Sneakymedic]

I have a three pole solenoid currently. Hot on the right from batt, hooked to starter on left with copper bar, small post hooked to "st" on middle of key switch.

 

[a32vickyhotrod]

(quoted from post at 17:55:09 12/11/18)

All it does is click now. Still wont turn over. Battery fully charged. I didn't try to jump it off cause its freezing out and wind at 15kts.

That is my sad SITREP for the evening. LOL[/img]

You say it starts and runs if you jump start it with another battery. Stop changing parts and skipping the first step. Just because you bought a new battery does not mean it is a good battery. If you don't want to bring the battery in to get it load tested try putting the battery in another vehicle and see if it has the voltage to start that vehicle. Also check the battery post connections . If the battery turns out to be good then you can go to the next step. Everything you have said so far points to the battery or connections at the battery.

 

[Sneakymedic]

So I have borrowed a voltmeter from a friend. What do I set the voltmeter on to test volts from a battery? And there are three locations for the wires to plug in the voltmeter. Any clue on which two of the three I should plug it in on the VM? I did hook a battery charger up to it to assure it was fully charged, and it read full.

I realize this is a PITA, I just dont know squat about electronics. Sorry.

 

[Sneakymedic]

Did the youtube thing for the quick multimeter tutorial. 12.49v

 

[HFJ]

(quoted from post at 22:18:44 12/11/18)
Did the youtube thing for the quick multimeter tutorial. 12.49v

12.49 is not bad. 12.65 is fully charged, but that difference is not likely to be the cause of your issues.

 

[HFJ]

ps: to read the battery voltage, u should place the leads directly on the battery posts themselves. if u read it anywhere else, you're not necessarily getting a true indication of the battery voltage, as there could be voltage loss from wires/connections/other components.

 

[Sneakymedic]

yep. thats what I did. (thumbs up)

 

[a32vickyhotrod]

I would still like to see what the load voltage is on that battery, but I am now leaning towards the brushes on the starter not making sufficient contact, assuming all other connections are good.

 

[HFJ]

good deal. i don't like taking anything for granted when youtube videos are involved

 

[oldtanker]

Real simple test.

The small terminal on the solenoid? If it's connected to the ignition switch disconnect it. Then put a jumper wire onto the terminal, put ignition switch in the run position, then touch the jumper wire to a ground and see what happens.

Rick

 

[a32vickyhotrod]

Good advise, I would also take one of your jumper cables and go straight from your positive post on your
battery to the starter side of the solenoid to see if the starter spins. Do this in neutral and ignition
off. If she doesn't spin you have found your problem.

 

[Sneakymedic]

ok, so this evening after work, I went outside and piddled. I did hook the starter thumb switch up and that didn't work. I assume that is broken. What I did first was to take the starter off. There was a lot of grime, wire wheeled the tranny frame and the starter face. She turned over like a new tractor.

Honestly, I have some other questions, but it runs. So be it.

I tried after it cranked and ran, turned it off again, and tried the thumb switch….no dice. It might be broken. I guess I will need to get one and install it.

I tried the jumper cable trick, and it didn't turn the starter ie, hot post to hot post on solenoid.

I also tried the jumper wire like you suggested from solenoid to bare ground, and that didn't turn the starter either. but it cranks with the switch. Thats the stuff I cant figure out.

but anyway….I wanted to thank all of you guys for your time and assistance. You gave me a ton of advice and resources. I appreciate it.

 

[a32vickyhotrod]

Fantastic, glad you got it running, this was fun trying to figure it out.

 

[Sneakymedic]

"Fun" is the first three letters in funeral. They are simple machines, I wish I knew more about electrical issues. I took a welding course evenings over the summer, I need to take an electrical course. And a CAD drawing course, and a Machining course, and a…. hahahahahaha.