5000 blows steering cover

[Wbalcorn]

I have a ford 5000 with the late style steering system with the pressure hoses under the steering wheel I got to much pressure have not put a gauge on it yet but when you blow out the gasket from the plate on the right hand side of the s box and pop the head off one of the bolts twice something is wrong I have a blockage or relief valve stuck looking for the system relief valve and has anyone else had this problem, thanks from an old row hoe

 

[Destroked 450]

Pressure relief valve is in the power steering pump

 

[Wbalcorn]

Ok thanks I will chec it out

Pressure relief valve is in the power steering pump

okay thanks I will check it out I appreciate you time and info

 

[Bern]

I have a ford 5000 with the late style steering system with the pressure hoses under the steering wheel I got to much pressure have not put a gauge on it yet but when you blow out the gasket from the plate on the right hand side of the s box and pop the head off one of the bolts twice something is wrong I have a blockage or relief valve stuck looking for the system relief valve and has anyone else had this problem, thanks from an old row hoe

I seriously doubt that your relief valve is stuck. I also don't believe that high pressure is causing your bolts to break. I'd rather suspect that they've been overtightened in the past in a vain attempt to keep the new style gaskets from blowing. Pressure spikes will blow the gasket, not pop the bolts. Pressure spikes are related to unusual external forces, such as the wheels falling into a rut, and have nothing to do with the relief valve in the pump.

Get yourself some new bolts, carefully noting that there are 3 different lengths. Glue the new gasket on both sides with aviation sealant and allow it to dry overnight. This should take care of your problem. It also wouldn't hurt to retorque the bolts after some use.

 

[Wbalcorn]

I seriously doubt that your relief valve is stuck. I also don't believe that high pressure is causing your bolts to break. I'd rather suspect that they've been overtightened in the past in a vain attempt to keep the new style gaskets from blowing. Pressure spikes will blow the gasket, not pop the bolts. Pressure spikes are related to unusual external forces, such as the wheels falling into a rut, and have nothing to do with the relief valve in the pump.

Get yourself some new bolts, carefully noting that there are 3 different lengths. Glue the new gasket on both sides with aviation sealant and allow it to dry overnight. This should take care of your problem. It also wouldn't hurt to retorque the bolts after some use.

Ok I will try that but shouldn’t the relief valve protect against spicks also does anyone have a diagram my system doesn’t have a steering valve with the 4 lines together or the cylinder under the radiator I will put some pictures on here when I get back to it thanks for your help

 

[Sean in PA]

Ok I will try that but shouldn’t the relief valve protect against spicks also does anyone have a diagram my system doesn’t have a steering valve with the 4 lines together or the cylinder under the radiator I will put some pictures on here when I get back to it thanks for your help

It takes a small amount of time for a pressure wave in the cylinder from hitting something with the front wheels to make its way back to the pump in order for the relief valve to be able to feel that pressure and open up, so there is a very small amount of time after the obstacle is encountered by the front wheel where the pressure in the system can be much higher that the relief pressure.

 

[Bern]

It takes a small amount of time for a pressure wave in the cylinder from hitting something with the front wheels to make its way back to the pump in order for the relief valve to be able to feel that pressure and open up, so there is a very small amount of time after the obstacle is encountered by the front wheel where the pressure in the system can be much higher that the relief pressure.

Sean, your thinking is wrong here. The relief valve inside the pump only protects the pump and box from excessive pressures generated by the pump. There's no way it can protect against excessive pressures generated externally.

Think of circuit relief valves used in front end loader valves such as would be found on an industrial tractor. If the operator tries to use the bucket as a dozer blade and strikes an obstacle, it is the circuit relief valve that opens and protects the cylinder, not the system relief valve.

 

[Bern]

Ok I will try that but shouldn’t the relief valve protect against spicks also does anyone have a diagram my system doesn’t have a steering valve with the 4 lines together or the cylinder under the radiator I will put some pictures on here when I get back to it thanks for your help

The diagram can be found in chapter 9 of part 12 of the 5000 repair manual. As with most Ford manuals, the info is somewhat lacking in detail. For example, the relief valve is not shown in this image.

 

[Sean in PA]

Sean, your thinking is wrong here. The relief valve inside the pump only protects the pump and box from excessive pressures generated by the pump. There's no way it can protect against excessive pressures generated externally.

Think of circuit relief valves used in front end loader valves such as would be found on an industrial tractor. If the operator tries to use the bucket as a dozer blade and strikes an obstacle, it is the circuit relief valve that opens and protects the cylinder, not the system relief valve.

The pressure eventually feeds back to the pump and the relief valve opens, but by that time the damage has been done. Of course, if the gasket on the side plate blows first, maybe the pressure never does reach to the pump for the relief valve to open.

 

[Wbalcorn]

Hey guys I haven’t hit any external obstacle to get a pressure surge it will blow out when I turn left and it popped the same bolt both times the one you can see at the bottom left I really appreciate all of your help this is a great tractor if I can just keep some power steering fluid in it the first time I had hyd. in it the second time I had trans fluid in it

 

[Bern]

The pressure eventually feeds back to the pump and the relief valve opens, but by that time the damage has been done. Of course, if the gasket on the side plate blows first, maybe the pressure never does reach to the pump for the relief valve to open.

If your logic was correct, there would be no need for circuit relief valves in backhoe and loader control valves. However, just about every industrial backhoe and loader valve out there use them to prevent damage due to excessive external forces. Again I repeat, the main system relief valve does not and cannot protect against this. The pressure in the cylinder cannot make its way back to the pump if the control valve is in neutral.

 

[Bern]

Hey guys I haven’t hit any external obstacle to get a pressure surge it will blow out when I turn left and it popped the same bolt both times the one you can see at the bottom left I really appreciate all of your help this is a great tractor if I can just keep some power steering fluid in it the first time I had hyd. in it the second time I had trans fluid in it

If it keeps popping new grade 8 bolts, you've got other problems going on inside - it's not a hydraulic pressure issue. I would start by checking the output shaft end play to make sure it's within spec. Either that or you're overtorquing the bolts.

 

[Wbalcorn]

I checked both shaft’s on the steering box the output shaft has 0 endplay but the steering shaft has about 1/4 inch could this be my problem

 

[Fritz Maurer]

Can you go into a little more detail? I don't see any broken bolts.

 

[Sean in PA]

I checked both shaft’s on the steering box the output shaft has 0 endplay but the steering shaft has about 1/4 inch could this be my problem

What are you calling the "output shaft" ? The shaft sticking out the side with the arm connected to it is called the sector shaft. You are saying that there is zero end play on that shaft? I'm not sure about that model tractor but most of them have some small amount of end play called for. And the "steering shaft" is the shaft that the steering wheel is connected to? Again, I'm not sure on that model, but on my '73 4000, which has a similar design, there is no end play on that shaft in terms of being able to move it up and down yourself, but it does move up and down slightly when you turn the steering wheel, up when you turn it in one direction and down when you turn it in the other direction.

 

[Bern]

I checked both shaft’s on the steering box the output shaft has 0 endplay but the steering shaft has about 1/4 inch could this be my problem

If you truly have zero end play on the output shaft, then you've stumbled across your problem, as there should be a little end play in that. Note however that end play is very difficult to detect or measure in the installed position, since you have two o-rings (#43 at the link below) sealing up against it internally, as well as an internal spring (#38) trying to push it in one direction. This would make it difficult to move the shaft back and forth by hand where it sits. End play is best measured with the two sealing o-rings and the spring removed, which would require shaft removal to start with.

As for the 1/4" in the input shaft, it sounds like a thrust washer (#23) is missing between it and the control valve spool (#2). Not a big deal, and it has nothing to do with your original problem.

Power Steering Gear Assembly - 4100 (8-70/) 5100, 7100 (9-70/) | New Holland Agriculture | MyCNH US Store

Find schematics, manuals, specifications and diagrams for POWER STEERING GEAR ASSEMBLY - 4100 (8-70/) 5100, 7100 (9-70/). Find genuine OEM parts for your needs.

www.mycnhstore.com

 

[Bern]

What are you calling the "output shaft" ? The shaft sticking out the side with the arm connected to it is called the sector shaft. You are saying that there is zero end play on that shaft? I'm not sure about that model tractor but most of them have some small amount of end play called for. And the "steering shaft" is the shaft that the steering wheel is connected to? Again, I'm not sure on that model, but on my '73 4000, which has a similar design, there is no end play on that shaft in terms of being able to move it up and down yourself, but it does move up and down slightly when you turn the steering wheel, up when you turn it in one direction and down when you turn it in the other direction.

Sean,

If your steering wheel goes up and down as you describe, and your box is just like the one the OP has, then you have problems internally, as it should not be doing that. On the other hand, if it was a 4000 SU with the double output arm box (two sector shafts), then what you're describing is completely normal.

 

[Wbalcorn]

If you truly have zero end play on the output shaft, then you've stumbled across your problem, as there should be a little end play in that. Note however that end play is very difficult to detect or measure in the installed position, since you have two o-rings (#43 at the link below) sealing up against it internally, as well as an internal spring (#38) trying to push it in one direction. This would make it difficult to move the shaft back and forth by hand where it sits. End play is best measured with the two sealing o-rings and the spring removed, which would require shaft removal to start with.

As for the 1/4" in the input shaft, it sounds like a thrust washer (#23) is missing between it and the control valve spool (#2). Not a big deal, and it has nothing to do with your original problem.

Power Steering Gear Assembly - 4100 (8-70/) 5100, 7100 (9-70/) | New Holland Agriculture | MyCNH US Store

Find schematics, manuals, specifications and diagrams for POWER STEERING GEAR ASSEMBLY - 4100 (8-70/) 5100, 7100 (9-70/). Find genuine OEM parts for your needs.

www.mycnhstore.com

Thanks Bern I will get back at it tomorrow especially the the information on the link as I don’t have any technical information to guide me and the time you have to share your expertise to help me I will check the sector shaft closer. The reason you don’t see the broken bolt is because I have resealed it and replaced the bolt.

 

[Wbalcorn]

Can you go into a little more detail? I don't see any broken bolts.

I have resealed the cover and replaced the bolt in the picture it was the same bolt both times bottom left right below the throttle control rod nut in the picture of the cover

 

[Sean in PA]

After breaking two bolts multiple times with the other bolts staying intact, I would think that the cover plate might have become deformed. You might consider replacing it after you figure out the root cause.