560 starts hard yet....

[Absent Minded Farmer]

It is cold out (34ºF) & I don't have any form of heater on it. Not going to use it much when it's cold out, but when I'm out of running gassers, it's nice to have something to move equipment with in the fall.... like now. The idea of a second battery sounds good. I'll take care of that when I get some spare scratch to do it. The timing could be off, too. Might have air in the system. The secondary filter weeps from the bolt. There's a new washer for that around here somewhere. Just have to find it. Any other ideas as to what could be making it a bear to start? I did notice one anomaly. I use the glow plugs for about a minute & a half. Takes a few tries with the starter to get it going & the throttle has to be at low idle. The exhaust it thick & black at that point. Once the engine catches, I have to let off the plugs until the exhaust turns white. Then I can hit them again to get it to fire on all cylinders. Usually about another 20 seconds. Then I can notch the throttle up to 1200 RPM to warm the engine. Do those symptoms give an idea as to what's up?

Mike

 

[kevinj54]

Have you checked compression on this thing?????

Does it crank over properly or is it turning too slow.

Maybe invest in a block heater.

You have said timing is 3 but have also questioned the timing.

Mine has hours on it and starts fine on 30 to 45 seconds.

It may stall out since I have an alternator and standing on the plugs just burns them out.

Oh, I have one 900 amp grp 31 battery.

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

Have not checked compression yet.

It cranks over good, just a little slower now that it's cold out.

Block heater wouldn't be a bad idea. Would like to find something that lasts more than a couple years.

The timing is set to 3º. With this tractor being my first diesel, I'm not sure if there is any benefit to advancing/retarding the timing.

Mine started great when it was still above 50ºF.

I keep hearing conflicting ideas on how long you can use the plugs.

Don't recall what group battery I have in there. Had a picture of the dumb thing & now I can't find it. I do know it just fits under the hood length
wise. Want to say it's an 1050 or 1100 amp.

Mike

 

[Donald in MN]

you should try a 1200 or 1500 watt engine heater. dad had one on the 706 it really helps when the temps. get below 40

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

Is that inline with the coolant or was it a block or oil pan heater?

Mike

 

[number 9]

We had several 560 Diesels when I was growing up. I believe they all had 2 - 6 volt batteries hooked up in series to give 12 volt output. Seemed like fully charged batteries were a necessity to get those diesels started even on a 50 degree day. I would check to make sure ALL of the glow plugs are working. If 1 or 2 isn’t heating up, starting can be sluggish. Dad would check them with an ohm meter, I don’t remember his exact process though. I’ll attempt to attach a link for checking glow plug output.
Glow Plug Testing

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

The link worked, thanks. The glow plugs are new, but I'll go over them just in case.

Mike

 

[Donald in MN]

It is an inline coolant heater. It is plumbed in to a t where the temp. Sender goes in to the head and the block drain near the engine oil dipstick

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

Had one of those on my H until it quit working. It was a good unit when it did. I'll look into one for the 560.

Mike

 

[fastfarmall]

Always heat the coolant if u can, oil should be secondary !

 

[rustred]

well let me start here, you said it was starting hard in the summer or this fall in the warmer weather. so if thats the case it will never start when your at or near freezing with out a block heater. i started mine yesterday at +5 degrees f. but i plugged it in for 2 hrs. held glow plugs for 40 seconds and touched the starter and it did not turn over 2 times and it was running.then you reduce the throttle to 900 rpm. that is the coldest i have ever started it. plus throttle is to be 3/4 advanced and hold glow plugs while cranking. and till smoke clears. mine done need to hold after starting as its all cleared up instantly. soooo you have problems. and i said before, someone did the work on this thing. you did not show the valves what they looked like. i saw people say those valves look good when in fact they are NOT good. you did not check the precombution cups... they only go in one way and the are marked "up" which goes up. if not it will be hard to start. i dont know what you mean by thick and black then have to let off glow plugs so exhaust turns white , makes no sense. these engines at freezing point need to be in dam good shape to start cold without a heater. and i know mine does. but the 660 no way, with same engine and i know the engine is low on compression. plus there is the injectors... if they are not misting the diesel then it will be hard to start also. you might have a few little things adding up here or just one problem. also one good 1000 amp battery will start that engine no problem. but if you have to be spinning it to start dont hurt to hook up 2 in parallel. plus once your cranking it crank it till it starts... it takes compression heat to start that diesel. how much cranking does it take to start it?? 5 seconds , 10 seconds?? plus it is best to remove the glow plugs and try them on a battery that way you can see what they are doing. the old GM diesels used a 6 volt glow plug with a timer and relay so they would not burn out. this gave a fast warm up on the plugs and easy start. try the timing at 5 degree's like the 660 , see if that helps. gears wear you know . check the timing in the little window. get the front pulley on 5 degree's at TDC and align the pump timing marks. it sure appears to me you have low compression and the head is the first place to be making sure the valve protrusion and valves and seats are in spec. plus as i said make sure those precups are installed correctly. plus make sure the cranking is up to snuff if its a bit slow forget it, it will not start. everything MUST be up to spec. its not a gas engine and these are one fussy engine. you need to have these things checked out. easiest first ,... precups, glow plugs, good battery, good starter, and timing. if that dont make it start then head needs a looking to plus sleeves and rings. compression check will verify that. i believe its around the 400 psi you need. and i will add if one or two glow plugs are burnt out that is another reason it will start hard and smoke a lot.

 

[kevinj54]

There are different glo plugs so the the required time depends on what you put in.

I have Diesel RX and have never needed over 1 min.

If I need to start it below 40 I plug it in for a while.

I have, I think a 600 watt soft plug heater as the tank heater gets in the way for flat belt work.

 

[Dieseltech]

If you REALLY want a good COLD starting D282, here's what has been done to mine.
Install the longer 806-966 starter to spin engine faster. Starter nose will need re-clocked.

Have ALL new valve seats installed, placing valves flush to .010 ABOVE the deck surface.

Modify six early Powerstroke glow plugs with a SHARP 3/8 X 24 NF die, so they will then fit the injectors. Modify wire ends as needed.

Mine will now start in 20 seconds cold, MUCH better than tractor ever was when new..

 

[David G]

You sure the glow plugs are working?

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

Not entirely sure. They are only a couple months old & tested good before I installed them. Once there's some time again, I'll pull & check them.

Mike

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

Is the opening on the starter nose positionable or will I have to do some grinding?

Pulling the head again won't be possible until Spring. Had to put a wheelchair ramp in the garage for my mother & have to share the rest of the space with my sister's car & my H.

Modding the plugs I can do. Is there a particular brand? Do I buy Navistar or generic?

Mike

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

I have the glow plugs from CaseIH. I'm thinking the soft plug heater might be the way to go. Speaking of, I should check & see if the one that in it
is any good yet.

Mike

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

There is a block heater in it. Looks like it's been there since antiquity. The wires are still good, so I'll test it. I have a few pics of the valves. Still can't find them. Will post those when I do. The precups I should be able to get to this week when it stops raining. I'll get some video next time I start it. Hopefully that clears up the mystery of what I'm talking about with the exhaust & maybe shows what I'm doing wrong when starting it. Once I get a chance to drain out the tank, I'll change the timing. Never did get the check valve straightened out for the return line to the tank. Is compression tested through the glow plug holes? Never done that on a diesel. Hope to get back to it Thursday or Friday if it isn't raining.

Mike

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

I need to test the plug heater in the block & see if it still works. Otherwise that will get changed out.

Mike

 

[Dieseltech]

Starter nose has Allen bolts that allow re-clocking so solenoid clears steering shaft, NO grinding needed. Autolite #1111 or equivalent glow plugs are what I use.

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

Excellent, thank you! Do you have a resource for the little windows that replace the timing cover?

Mike

 

[Dieseltech]

If you mean the small injection timing cover on pump side, I have some.

 

[Dieseltech]

Engine uses 1 5/8 core plugs, for fast cold start help on a tired 460 I had years ago I put TWO heaters in on each side of block center. Just warming the block 40-50 degrees really helps. Saves the batteries, starter, and your temper too...

 

[pete 23]

Hard starting. Compression, cranking speed, glow plugs and timing.

I like the idea of using that better starter first off. Second, easy way to test glow plugs. Unhook all except one. Press glow plug button and meter should register near half way. Do that one at a time to all glow plugs.

If still doubting the glow plugs, pull glow plug, ground it with a jumper wire and with all glow plugs hooked up, it should glow red in 15 to 20 seconds if you have good power through whole glow plug system.

If it misses on one or two cylinders after it does start it is due to poor compression or glow plug.

Tip on starting, in cold weather. Pull shut off cable out, hold glow plugs about full minute. Hit starter and spin it over a few time to help warm combustion chamber. Now, while still holding glow plugs, pull throttle wide open, push in shut off and crank it up.

If starter turns slower while holding glow plugs than not, you don't have enough battery power.

This short of an engine rebuild should help. On valve recession, or protrusion, I have seen valves touch pistons when flush with head so one has to be careful. Piston protrusion over block and recess in piston for valve is determining factor. Many 282's vary on piston protrusion which is critical on starting.

Now, I am not talking about sleeve flange height or the fire ring on sleeve protrusion. I mean actual highest part of piston as to how far it is above or below top of the block. Due to tolerences when manufacturing an engine and all the parts involved these dimensions vary within what manufacturer feels is acceptable. Believe me, no two engines are identical.
I have no idea if the injection nozzles have been in or out lately but it is not unusual to find the pre cup below nozzle holder to be positioned wrong and that greatly affects starting and running.

 

[caterpillar guy]

With the next battery replacement go to the grp 31's with the stud top. Less fooling around cleaning, and easy to hook up with just the eye on the cable end to put over the stud. Also gets rid of that messing with the tightening of the lead clamps getting distorted from tightening.

 

[rustred]

i like your explanations pete, and i can tell we are on the same page. not pulling stuff out of the rafters. not many ih mechanic's left for these engines.

 

[Redturbo]

Hey Rusted, would you be interested in putting a Injection pump on a IH 560?

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

Yep, I need to upgrade to a group 31. Thought that's what is on there. What I found was a 65. I'll make that upgrade first. If there isn't much of an improvement, I'll wire in a second 31 in parallel. If that don't do it, I may have bigger issues. Will have to get a bigger hammer. ;v)

Mike

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

I'm going to give your cold weather tip a try in a bit. Can't wait to see if that's an improvement or not. I can go over the plugs & precups, also. Anything more involved than that, the garage will need to be utilized. Won't be able to do that until Spring. Unfortunately, there's not enough room for a 560, a Mini & a wheelchair ramp in the garage at this time.

Mike

 

[rustred]

no problem there.