6 Volt / 12 Volt failure analysis

[HarryVanderpool]

As soon as the work is mainly done and the rain begins, I am going to go backwards through every post and tally up the requests for 6 volt help requests VS the 12 volt requests for help on this forum.
Anybody care to guess at the percentage prior to the tally?
I am going to guess somewhere between 80 - 85% of requests for help on this forum comes from 12-volt conversions.
If anyone wants to jump ahead and survey before I have time; knock yourself out!!

 

[used red MN]

As soon as the work is mainly done and the rain begins, I am going to go backwards through every post and tally up the requests for 6 volt help requests VS the 12 volt requests for help on this forum.
Anybody care to guess at the percentage prior to the tally?
I am going to guess somewhere between 80 - 85% of requests for help on this forum comes from 12-volt conversions.
If anyone wants to jump ahead and survey before I have time; knock yourself out!!

I am sure the results will support your proposed thinking that 6 volt systems are more reliable and require less assistance to repair and maintain. However, the results will be skewed because converting from 6 volts to 12 volts is the trend. Thus the number of 6 to 12 volt conversions in thread topics is higher. Rarely does a new owner of a N tractor have.. maintain original 6 volt generator and regulator.. on their to do list for their new pride and joy. The fact that some have no basic electrical knowledge throws them in the drowning pool looking for life lines on their 6 to 12 volt systems.

 

[OldBlue61]

Let me begin by saying I mean no offense to anyone by this post, but I really don't understand all the hate for a 12v system. Granted, I will say that the quality of parts today compared to 10 years ago are pretty pathetic, but that doesn't make one better and the other worse. It's kinda like asking the question "What's the best oil for my blah-blah-blah" that you see on a lot of forums. Everyone has an opinion, and God forbid if you have a different one or don't agree with another persons opinion. And as far as originality, does it really matter to anyone except those who restore them to better-than-new quality (which I love, by the way)? We're talking about 70+ year old farm equipment with not a huge amount of monetary value.

So, everyone has their own opinion of both 6v and 12v systems. Just because you favor one over the other doesn't make you right or wrong or one system better worse, just makes things different. Me, I had my own reasons for converting to 12v (being able to use my 8N with my pull-behind sprayers, for one) and I'm very happy I did. I'm pretty decent with wiring systems, and got a conversion kit that seems to be decent.

All of my equipment is now 12v. Makes jumping, charging, and general maintenace easier, as all my stuff is now the same. For me, converting to a 12v system was the best solution.

 

[Btzj02]

"HarryVanderpool", I would wager that most problems are just crappy or incorrect wiring and lack of timely maintenance. My guess is you will find relatively equal requests for help from both 6 volt and 12 volt. I have one of each and both are reliable.

 

[Hobo,NC]

As soon as the work is mainly done and the rain begins, I am going to go backwards through every post and tally up the requests for 6 volt help requests VS the 12 volt requests for help on this forum.
Anybody care to guess at the percentage prior to the tally?
I am going to guess somewhere between 80 - 85% of requests for help on this forum comes from 12-volt conversions.
If anyone wants to jump ahead and survey before I have time; knock yourself out!!

You will have to admit at least 80/85" of the folks out there are willing to go there. 99% of the 6 volt lubbers are not and there is a reason for it and its not that 6V is better. The ability to find quality parts to keep your 6V junk going is becoming slim and none. Its the same for your ignition system. I understand fighting off learning something new, I don't understand why 6V lubbers fight this off I can only assume their diagnostic skills are that bad. Those post prove it for the simple reason they don't understand how to use a voltmeter.

 

[olddavid]

One reason to switch to 12 volts is cost and availability of parts. Let's face it the alternators offer superior charging capabilities over generators and the 12 volts spins the engine faster giving it a better chance to start esp in cold weather. Dad did all of his old tractors except for the TO-35 which was already 12 volts with a generator not an alternator. I'll admit I am biased against electronic ignition because of past experience with them on cars. I also see a lot of folks having trouble with them on this forum. Maybe it's because they don't hook them up correctly, but the old point system was tried and true and simple to troubleshoot. To each his own. No right or wrong.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

Let me begin by saying I mean no offense to anyone by this post, but I really don't understand all the hate for a 12v system. Granted, I will say that the quality of parts today compared to 10 years ago are pretty pathetic, but that doesn't make one better and the other worse. It's kinda like asking the question "What's the best oil for my blah-blah-blah" that you see on a lot of forums. Everyone has an opinion, and God forbid if you have a different one or don't agree with another persons opinion. And as far as originality, does it really matter to anyone except those who restore them to better-than-new quality (which I love, by the way)? We're talking about 70+ year old farm equipment with not a huge amount of monetary value.

So, everyone has their own opinion of both 6v and 12v systems. Just because you favor one over the other doesn't make you right or wrong or one system better worse, just makes things different. Me, I had my own reasons for converting to 12v (being able to use my 8N with my pull-behind sprayers, for one) and I'm very happy I did. I'm pretty decent with wiring systems, and got a conversion kit that seems to be decent.

All of my equipment is now 12v. Makes jumping, charging, and general maintenace easier, as all my stuff is now the same. For me, converting to a 12v system was the best solution.

Same here. It’s nice to be able to use the little jump pack and the pickup with the good battery. No 6 volts on the place. And often if equipped with resistors from a conversion they get swapped for a coil that works without any external resistance

From the John Deere model A to ford 2000 farmall super c and John Deere 4020 troubleshooting the electrical side is all the same no questions no “but if this is different…” nope we will have it running in 15 minutes to go get the hay. Sometimes with parts from one of the other colors.

Sending someone else out (not going to name names he’s certainly old enough to know better!!) to the 6 volt tractor with the battery charger was a good way to need lightbulbs all around. That sped up the conversions too.

It would be significantly more difficult to make everything 6v….

 

[OldBlue61]

but the old point system was tried and true and simple to troubleshoot.

Exactly why I kept mine instead of going to EI.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

One reason to switch to 12 volts is cost and availability of parts. Let's face it the alternators offer superior charging capabilities over generators and the 12 volts spins the engine faster giving it a better chance to start esp in cold weather. Dad did all of his old tractors except for the TO-35 which was already 12 volts with a generator not an alternator. I'll admit I am biased against electronic ignition because of past experience with them on cars. I also see a lot of folks having trouble with them on this forum. Maybe it's because they don't hook them up correctly, but the old point system was tried and true and simple to troubleshoot. To each his own. No right or wrong.

I understand people especially if they have had a bad experience with ei not being very open to it.

Had a discussion at a fish fry with an older mechanic who had done hundreds of conversions over the years. He says he has slowed that down had some trouble recently factory rep was out on one of them.

They are expensive you zap one more than 100 dollar bill is leaving your pocket.

Often the conversions go smoothly I think that’s one thing this mechanic was forgetting how many of those 200 machines or more came back to even look at the distributor? 5 maybe or less? He said yes if that but he had 2 recently and he has now soured on them pretty quick

In our discussion I blame my use of the things on the cursed 2 cylinders and how they need every chance they can get to pop to keep the peace but I still use the EI kits just because if it’s done right and everything is working the customer won’t ever have to touch it again in most of the cases I make sure it runs on points first everything is timed. Then swap in the EI kit and it’s highly likely you won’t ever see that tractor again.

If they are handy with changing points out and rebuilding distributors that’s a whole different answer and I understand a burnt set of points and condenser from accidentally leaving a key on costs significantly less then that ei kit.

People have just gotten used to letting something sit for 12 months and wanting it to fire for the parade too so that sells a lot of kits. They seem to be more willing to drain the fuel out then go to town to get new points. Or clean the old ones and regap.

 

[Eman85]

I didn't convert mine to 12v, previous owner did it. Had a 12v generator when I bought it almost 40 years ago. No problems and I converted it to an alternator not long after I bought it because the conversion was a little rough. It has points and I see no need to convert to EI. The tractor doesn't leave my property and points are simple and for me they have been reliable.

 

[ChrisFromCLE]

My ‘52 N has stayed 6v with generator because the system has just worked. I do keep a battery tender on it especially in the winter. Knock on wood it has never failed to start for me.

I also have a ‘52 Farmall Cub that was converted to 12v alternator. It seems that the conversion has been a little hard on the starter. It needs new brushes again.

Moral of the story is that I have one of each and both work. Flip a coin.

Chris from CLE

 

[Ultradog MN]

As soon as the work is mainly done and the rain begins, I am going to go backwards through every post and tally up the requests for 6 volt help requests VS the 12 volt requests for help on this forum.
Anybody care to guess at the percentage prior to the tally?
I am going to guess somewhere between 80 - 85% of requests for help on this forum comes from 12-volt conversions.
If anyone wants to jump ahead and survey before I have time; knock yourself out!!

I didn't do any research on this but I'm going to guess that 80-85% of the posts you've made on this forum have pertained to the 6v vs 12v debate.
And 99% of Them have been to remind us of your inveterate hatred of anything but 6v and points.

 

[Mad Farmer]

I didn't do any research on this but I'm going to guess that 80-85% of the posts you've made on this forum have pertained to the 6v vs 12v debate.
And 99% of Them have been to remind us of your inveterate hatred of anything but 6v and points.

If it works, inexpensive, and simple to work on, go with it. 6V or 12V, points or EI.

I'm a big fan of the 1970s single wire EI GM distributors and alternators. Old cars/trucks I keep one of each in the trunk or behind the seat as spares. I can switch those out roadside with tools that fit in a 50-cal ammo box (that box is in the truck too with a rack of 1/4, 3/8, 1/2" sockets).

I put one of those 1-wire distributors in my 67 CJ5 with the Buick V6. Was hard to find an odd fire one 30 years ago, most all have been scraped by now. It's hard to find a good salvage auto yard now too.......

I wish I had salvaged an extra front mount N distributor (and other stuff) years ago when people were scraping Ns for steel. It would be nice to have a refurbished OEM spare all set up and timed ready to go.

 

[will-max dairy]

If it works, inexpensive, and simple to work on, go with it. 6V or 12V, points or EI.

I'm a big fan of the 1970s single wire EI GM distributors and alternators. Old cars/trucks I keep one of each in the trunk or behind the seat as spares. I can switch those out roadside with tools that fit in a 50-cal ammo box (that box is in the truck too with a rack of 1/4, 3/8, 1/2" sockets).

I put one of those 1-wire distributors in my 67 CJ5 with the Buick V6. Was hard to find an odd fire one 30 years ago, most all have been scraped by now. It's hard to find a good salvage auto yard now too.......

I wish I had salvaged an extra front mount N distributor (and other stuff) years ago when people were scraping Ns for steel. It would be nice to have a refurbished OEM spare all set up and timed ready to go.

A new front mount distributor for an N tractor is available from Amazon for 40 to 50 bucks...

Like it or not. We will save our a$$es going forward by supporting these aftermarket manufacturers. If they get support, they'll keep making parts.

If not...well good luck building that time machine to go back to 1978 to rescue junk from the scrap yard. Or sourcing the ever-dwindling supply of rebuild kits (which... guess what? made in the same country as the new distributors...)

But the quality of those 50 dollar distributors!!!!!! Oh the humanity!!!!!!!

Get over it. Ford sold lots of tractors that needed ignition work a few years after they were built. Why do you think there was a healthy maintenance industry and parts-production industry back then?

Or... we could start making them new again in the US... I would support that. There is a lot of stuff being manufactured here right now that's more useless than a new front mount distributor...

 

[will-max dairy]

As to the main question of the thread... 6V vs 12V...

A lot of 12V failures are cockpit errors... as in... people messin' with stuff they shouldn't be messin' with. I'm an electronics engineer... I have a Ford 641 converted to 12V and a 2N that's still original... I remember, even as an MSEE... having to figure some stuff out to do the 12V conversion... lots of room for error and problems there that are independent of the part quality.

I work in the Reliability Surrogate Data industry. We publish failure rates... and failure modes... without breaking the failure rates down to failure modes... or normalizing for operating hours, dormancy, # of demands... (and stratifying the data by calendar years, to try to account for part quality/maintenance practice differences) etc... I'm not sure what a survey of YT yields.

It's tedious.

That's why most large entities are turning to an AI method called NLP (Natural Language Processing) or TLP (Technical Language Processing)... to parse the text of field repair documents into failure modes.

But... good luck... sincerely... maybe you'll find some trends.

 

[Mad Farmer]

A new front mount distributor for an N tractor is available from Amazon for 40 to 50 bucks...

Would you put that distributor in your 2N? I spent close to that for quality parts last time, just to R + R my 9Ns distributor.

I saw where things are going and bought extras (USA Blue Streak stuff). Glad I did, if you can find them price is double or tripled

I was just stating the old USA stuff was heads and shoulders above the POS they are selling now from overseas.

I do have spare 1-wire GM distributors and alternators for my 1960-1980s GM cars and trucks. Pulled them many years ago for nothing when my friend who owned a junkyard , was going to crush stuff to make room in the yard.

 

[560Dennis]

Very interesting ! Thanks!

 

[will-max dairy]

Would you put that distributor in your 2N? I spent close to that for quality parts last time, just to R + R my 9Ns distributor.

I saw where things are going and bought extras (USA Blue Streak stuff). Glad I did, if you can find them price is double or tripled

I was just stating the old USA stuff was heads and shoulders above the POS they are selling now from overseas.

I do have spare 1-wire GM distributors and alternators for my 1960-1980s GM cars and trucks. Pulled them many years ago for nothing when my friend who owned a junkyard , was going to crush stuff to make room in the yard.

Yes.... Yes I would... and did... a couple of years ago, and I have had zero (0) ignition problems with our 82 year old Ford 2N since then.

The distributor that I removed was original. Sure, I could replace points and such... but... the actual drive mechanism in the back was getting worn, the shaft was getting sloppy.

You can buy rebuild kits for distributors... but let's compare the probability of a successful rebuild/build.

Me... who has never rebuilt a Ford 2N distributor... starting with an 82 year old shell... buying a rebuild kit made of Chinese parts... and following directions in Chinglish to press on bushings, etc...

or...

Somebody in a factory in China... starting with newly minted parts... building a few distributors every hour

Time changes things, and skill is transient... let's face it... the people with experience building 2N distributors are now in China, and they are probably better than me at it.

That new disty was one of the best 50 bucks I ever spent.... because... let's also talk about the utility of time spent.

I could spend a few hours learning the nuances of rebuilding a Ford 2N distributor... and I would get to exercise that skill again in... 82 years... er... I mean... never, because I would be long gone.

Around a farm, there are plenty of hills to die on. I choose to avoid all of them. I want to live a few more years... lol

 

[Jim WI]

I had a 2N that I converted to 12 Volts. Had no problem doing so. Then again, I am a technical sort of person, so I am probably more knowledgeable than most. I also did not convert to EI. I could get the points distributor working fine without much trouble, so saw the EI as an unneeded expense.

 

[OldBlue61]

I also did not convert to EI. I could get the points distributor working fine without much trouble, so saw the EI as an unneeded expense.

Same for me.