640 with a 172??

[xicor37]

Hello everyone,

I just bought what I was told is a '56 Ford 640. I bought it from the original owner and it is in very very good condition. Everything on it functions flawlessly and it is all original right down to the 6v electrical system. At least the original owner told me that nothing has ever been changed on it except the fluids, plugs and tires. All visual evidence seems to back up this claim. the hitch that I'm running in to is the engine is the 172 cu. in. My preliminary research shows that it would be an 850 in order to have the 172 but then the 850 is a 5 speed and mine is a 4 speed. Is there an 840? Is it possible that a 640 managed to make it out of the factory with the 172? there is no doubt that it is indeed a 172 cu. in. engine. The plate that is riveted to the side of the block has the serial number to match that. It also has "172 cu. in." stamped in it. This plate is very obviously original to the engine and has never been tampered with.

Following is some of the numbers on the tractor:

Tractor serial:
110988

Engine plate:
B8PD - 6006 - G
50x - 312
(there is also a serial # but I forgot it)

Thanks in advance for helping me figure this out,
~Tyler

 

[GlenIdaho]

Your serial number makes it a 1957. Yes they made a 840, at least my book shows they made one. The 850 and 860 both had the five speed trans. The 172 block with a ID plate is unusual as a plate was not standard. I believe the number B8PD - 6006 - G may identify it ans an industrial engine, not sure though. They did place ID plates on the industrial engines. More than likely it was an industrial engine that someone swapped into your tractor. You say there is a serial number "to match that" To match what? If it matches the serial number on the trans, just aft of the starter, then you may have a factory swap or special swap which would be interesting.

There will be a number stamped into the block that starts with an EAE if it is a 134 or EAF if it is a 172. The 600's had a 134 ci engine.

You may have a 640 if it has 3 point lift and PTO. The 620's and 630's also had the 4 speed.

The 172 was not generally put in the 600's because the rear end is lighter and would not hold up under the extra HP of the 172. Hope this helps.

 

[souNdguy]

ditto what glen said. the 172ci engines were in the 8xx and 9xx and early 4xxx tractors.

what are the stamped numbers on your trans bellhousing?

and what are the cast in numbers on the block.

as was said.. that rivited id plate sounds like an engine from an industrial setup.. like a water pump or generator. perhaps it had engine trouble and was swapped at a dealer and the owner doesn't recall it.

is your oil filter spin on or canister.. if spin on.. is it using an adapter plate or is the oring face machined right into the block?

soundguy

 

[Dean]

Like Glen and Soundguy say, IF your tractor is a 6xx AND it has a 172 CI engine, the engine is NOT original.

Dean

 

[xicor37]

Ok it gets stranger... I can not find a EAE or an EAF anywhere on the block. The only thing I can find is "CONN 6015J". The plate that is riveted on says "Ford industrial engine" but in the serial number box it has the exact same serial as the tractor.

I called the old man I bought it from and he swears nothing has ever happened to it and that is the original engine. He bought the tractor brand new in '57.

I was told that there should be a model number stamped above the serial on the trans by the starter. There isn't, there may have been at one time I can kind of see one or two scratches or marks but nothing that makes sense. I even tried taking a pencil rubbing and I couldn't even make a guess at it.

Thanks again,
~Tyler

 

[GlenIdaho]

Hello Tyler;

Take a look at the below info from John Smith's Old Ford Tractors. The CONN 6015J was the part number cast into the 172 blocks produced from 1960 to 1964. It cannot be from 1957. The previous owner may be mistaken. The fact the the ID plate says Ford Industrial Engine show that it was not a tractor engine. The Industrials were used for other equipment, to power generators etc.

Explaining the serial number may be as simple as whoever installed the engine placed the serial number on the plate. The only other explanation is coincidence.

Hopefully Tony Jacobs may offer some info to confirm what has been said or he me know something we don't, which is highly probably since he has worked on the Fords for years.

Part number identifiers cast into 134 and 172 engine blocks (lower right side)
EAE 6015 - 134 1953-1957
EAF 6015 - 172 1953-1957
310905 - 134 1958-1959
310609 - 172 1958-1959
B9NN-6015C - 134 late 1959 early 1960
B9NN6015J - 172 late 1959 early 1960
CONN-6015C - 134 late 1960-1964
CONN-6015J - 172 late 1960-1964

 

[awhtx]

It CANNOT be the original engine regardless of what the PO says. In Ford Engineering language C0 (that's a Zero, not a capital letter O) stands for 1960. How could a tractor that was built in 1957 have an engine block that was designed in 1960?

 

[xicor37]

Ok so it's a 1960-1964 industrial 172 engine. I'm ok with that. It's nice I actually have a little more HP than I thought I was buying, like losing a nickle but finding a dime

That being said, what are the differences between this engine and the original other than displacement? Is it weaker, stronger, better, worse? Is this engine up to tractor duty? If I need to do repairs or tune-ups what do I order parts for? For example, I'd like to do a 12v conversion at some point can I just order a kit for the 640 or should I get one for an 840 or maybe even one for a industrial engine? What about points, plugs and such?

I'm going to give the old man another call and see if the 60-64 dates jog his memory. He's a very nice old guy but he is very old and in failing health. I'll let him know I'm not upset about it, just curious.

Thanks,
~Tyler

 

[awhtx]

I have not verified it but it has been reported here that the C0NN blocks were the first ones without sleeves- a "parent bore" block. It should also be machined for a spin-on oil filter- no adapter needed to switch from the cannister style.
Ask the PO if he ever loaned the tractor to his brother-in-law, cousin, neighbor, whomever. If he loaned it out and the borrower threw a rod through the block maybe he was man enough to repair the tractor at his expense rather than returning it with an "I'm sorry- see you later".

 

[xicor37]

I can't verify the sleeves obviously bit it does have a spin on oil filter without any adapter that I can see.

~Tyler

 

[GlenIdaho]

Hi Tyler;

There was very little difference between the 172's most if not all parts are interchangeable. Yours may have been equipped with a fuel pump for whatever application is was used on. The tractors were gravity fed. Its rated at about 43 hp. The Original 134 ci was around 34 hp. When buying parts the year and displacement of the engine will be what you want to use as a reference. Same points, plugs etc.

If your 6 volt system is working fine, why convert to 12 volts? Many remain with the 6 volt system because they have no problems with them. The 12 volt may provide some extra cranking power and parts may be cheaper, but all in all the 6 volt is a good system. If you buy a 12 volt system they differentiate between the 600's, 700's, 800's and 900's.

One thing that I would do before going further is make sure you have a 640. Could you actually have an 800? Since the model number is not clear on the trans you'll need to check the casting part codes on the center housing and axle trumpets. The part numbers will start with an NCA for the 600 and NDA for the 800. The axle trumpet part number is located towards the wheel end and will be NCA 4010 C for the right trumpet and NCA 4011 C for the left. The center housing number is located on the lower left side near the the PTO lever. The numbers will be NCA 4025 for the 600 and NDA 4025 for the 800. Once you find out what model it is you can them go from there. If you want to learn further you can also get the date casting codes which will tell you when the parts were made and help determine how much of a mutt you have or don't have. Hope this helps.

 

[xicor37]

All the castings are NDA so I guess it was an 840? Oddly I noticed that the tin is mounted on the lower of the two holes indicating the smaller gas tank and it being a 640...

Anyhow I just got back from shredding our back pasture which had gotten pretty thick from being without a tractor for a while and it performed as well or better than I could have hoped for so all's well that ends well.

Maybe I can get decals for the front that say:

FORD
M
U
T
T


P.S. any good ideas on how to weigh the front end down on this thing? With the engine at operating speed just letting the clutch out pulls the front end off the ground and obviously going up hills is worse! Being in Kentucky I have pretty hilly land and so far this Ford is making me really miss my old Massey 85 diesel, front end never lifted on it.

 

[GlenIdaho]

Hi Tyler;

Okay, so you have a 1956 Ford 840 with a transplanted Industrial engine. I think you'll be happier with it then you would a 640. More horse power. If you can post a photo we'd like to see it. You should have no problems buying parts.

As far as weight is concerned, you can fill the front tires with RV antifreeze as it is non-corrosive; calcium-chloride which is corrosive, but used in tractors (corrodes wheels); or a product called Rim Guard which is made of beet juice and a little on the expensive side. If you have a bumper on the front you can add weight to it; or they make wheel weights that bolt to the front wheels. Or do a combination. You can make a weight of concrete, you just need a means of hanging it on the front.

Do you know if the rear wheels have fluid in them? I would add weight to the rears as well to help lower the center of gravity on your hills.

Do you have and ORC to use with your bush hog?

 

[Dean]

Front wheel weights that bolt to the inside of the front rims were made by several manufacturers and can be found today with a bit of patience.

"Light" (70 lbs./wheel) and "heavy" (100lbs./wheel) were made.

I have heavy sets on all of my vintage Fords. Stability on hills and/or with lifted implements is considerably improved at the expense of harder steering on the tractors with manual steering unless there is a load on the lift.

Dean

 

[xicor37]

The rears are filled with cacl I'll probably change that to antifreeze when it comes time for new tires. I definitely need to find some front weights and fill the front tires though.

I just put an ORC on it today before shredding. I couldn't run a bush hog on my property without one!

I'll get some pics tomorrow when the sun is out again. Unfortunately I went and got it dirty. I'll have to give it a wash before the photo shoot. It was so clean when I got it I almost feel bad about working it.

~Tyler

 

[GlenIdaho]

Here's some food for thought. I hadn't thought about it being newer tractor but your serial number falls within the serial numbers for 1960. The casting codes would help narrow it down.

 

[NoNewParts]

I'll get some pics tomorrow when the sun is out again. Unfortunately I went and got it dirty. I'll have to give it a wash before the photo shoot. It was so clean when I got it I almost feel bad about working it.
~Tyler

Don't feel bad. These old Fords are much happier when they are working.
Listen to it when you are hogging in deep grass.....it's singing......
...roaring.....

Seriously, my tractors that sit around take much
more upkeep work than the ones I use everyday

 

[xicor37]

Well here she is! I found a pic on my phone that I took the day I brought her home.

I've already changed the cap, rotor, plugs and wires just to get rid of the red over-spray on them also did points and condenser while I was in there. The rest of the tractor was actually painted pretty well. For some reason he just didn't mask off the distributor?! I also ordered the two wheel studs that you can see are missing. I probably won't bother to put them on until I have to have the wheel off though.

Another question for you pro's. I have an old '47 2n sitting in my barn that's complete but not likely to ever be functional again. It's very rough. However it has a Sherman Combination drive in it. Will this work in my 840? I find that even first gear is a bit too fast for a lot of my work. It's ok in the one wide open flat pasture we have but most of my land is hilly or close quarter turning and the like. I'd really like to be able to slow her down.

If the 2N's Sherman won't work would it be worth enough to bother pulling and try to sell or trade for one that will?

Thanks,
~Tyler

 

[awhtx]

That's definitely 600/800 sheet metal. I also see that the left brake cross shaft passes through the transmission bellhousing which is correct for a X00 or very early X01.
Do you have a photo of the rear end in order to determine if you have the light duty (600) or heavy duty (800)?
I can't help with your Sherman question.

 

[GlenIdaho]

Hi Tyler;

That's one nice 840! You have yourself a great tractor. I see you have a front bumper that would allow you to hang some weight on it.

I can't answer the question about the Sherman, but I would suspect that you would not be able to and would have to trade for or buy a newer version. You have the option of going to the five speed which would slow it down some. Or you could wait and look around for an 860 or 861 with the 5 speed and live pto. Thanks for the picture.
Shermans

 

[GlenIdaho]

Hi Alan;

You must have missed the thread below. He checked the part numbers cast into the center housing and axle trumpets and reported they were NDA so it would be the 800. How's that F600 comin along?

 

[GlenIdaho]

Hi Tyler, me again;

saw the below thread (see link) and thought it might help you. Contact Jim UT as he has a fellow familiar with the Shermans and may be able to help.
Shermans

 

[jimNCal]

The 2N"s Combo WILL swap right over as long as the 840 has the 9"/10 spline clutch as does the 2N. Straight swap.