6V vs 12V problems tally sheet

[HarryVanderpool]

O.K.
Today is ground zero.
Get a fresh scratch pad out and double check my results.
Beginning 7-20-21, I am going to tally runability complaints posted here on YT between 6V and 12 V.
Please follow along.
Hugs & Kisses!

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 01:13:04 07/20/21) O.K.
Today is ground zero.
Get a fresh scratch pad out and double check my results.
Beginning 7-20-21, I am going to tally runability complaints posted here on YT between 6V and 12 V.
Please follow along.
Hugs & Kisses!

eep the bungled 12v conversions by people that didn't know jack about what they were doing separate.

 

[Btzj02]

[/quote]

That gave me a big morning smile. LOL

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley]

10-4!

TPD

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley]

FACT: 99.98% of all non-starting-non-running tractors are due to incorrect wiring regardless whether 6V/POS GRN or 12V/NEG GRN. There are PRO's and CONs for both systems. However, switching out to 12V simply because you can't figure out how the 6V/POS GRN system operates is just plain stupid and wrong thinking. Many newbies (and a few oldies too) fail to invest in the ESSENTIAL MANUALS; the most important tools to own if'N ya wanna be an N-Owner. The two most mis-understood and confusing issues on old FORD vehicles are the front mount distributor and the 6V/POS GRN wiring system. You can take your pick on which one you want to list a #1 and #2; they're both equally rated the same in my book. As Bruce(VA)says, ...if your tractor won't start on 6V, what makes you think it will on 12V?... Touch! I've never had a need to go to 12V, my 6V N's always started and ran because I did the required PM. FORD Tractor never used a 12V system until the late Hundred Series diesel models. Thus there are NO 12V wiring diagrams from FORD TRACTOR prior to then. There is an excellent document put together by electrical expert JMOR titled WIRING PICTOGRAMS by JMOR with every correct way to wire these N's and Hundred Series both with OEM 6V and 12V conversions. He offers a FREE downloadable version in pdf - other site, HOW-TO's. His is the only complete document with both setups shown and with follow-along pictures that I know of anyway. Other wiring sketches are around but you can get them all in one document. Like JMOR says, be sure you discard all the BS info that has been posted. For example, ... you need an 8V battery in order to run better... In my opinion, in all the years I've been here and reading posts, I would say that there are a lot more 12V conversions gone awry than OEM 6V's. One only has to read the posts as there are almost certainly is at least one 12V issue every day.

Tim Daley(MI)

 

[Smokeonthewater]

Suppose we should also leave out the neglected poorly maintained tractors but then the thread could just be deleted as neither 6v OR 12v inherently cause any runability problems

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 10:46:17 07/20/21) Suppose we should also leave out the neglected poorly maintained tractors but then the thread could just be deleted as neither 6v OR 12v inherently cause any runability problems

personally don't believe the #1 culprit can be disregarded....electro-mechanical voltage regulators. Just one man's opinion/observations.

 

[Mad Farmer]

Finding a decent Gen cutout that's not Chi-Com or breaks the bank.

 

[504]

Working lights(for night work)I want 12V, Radio, 12V, just working around here 6V is fine.(I have both,both factory)

 

[Jim L WA]

Mark me down in the can't get a good voltage regulator problem.

 

[R Geiger]

(quoted from post at 10:43:32 07/22/21) Mark me down in the can't get a good voltage regulator problem.

I converted my two 8ns because I could not get a good voltage regulator!

 

[tractorguy2]

Can't find good regulators. Takes at least three regulators to get one that works.... for a while.

 

[Smokeonthewater]

Surely someone makes a decent electronic regulator

 

[R Geiger]

easier to change over to 12 volts and be done with the problem! Let us knnow IF you find one!

This post was edited by R Geiger on 07/22/2021 at 01:27 pm.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 16:01:55 07/22/21)
Surely someone makes a decent electronic regulator

I think JMOR once found a source but its not commercial and definitely not cheap. IIRC the gentleman that developed it is now deceased.

There is no market for a solid state voltage regulator for 6V or 12V DC generators. The reason being every alternator made has a very reliable solid state VR (integrated or separate) and produces way more power. Automotive generators are quickly entering the realm of buggy whips.

TOH

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 16:49:47 07/22/21)

(quoted from post at 16:01:55 07/22/21)
Surely someone makes a decent electronic regulator

I think JMOR once found a source but its not commercial and definitely not cheap. IIRC the gentleman that developed it is now deceased.

There is no market for a solid state voltage regulator for 6V or 12V DC generators. The reason being every alternator made has a very reliable solid state VR (integrated or separate) and produces way more power. Automotive generators are quickly entering the realm of buggy whips.

TOH

itto all the above . Further making it unreasonable to cover so many generator variations, there would need to be many VR designs, because the VR needs to match generator field requirements vs output and limit output current to the max output of that specific generator design.. Pick up a 1950-1960 Motors manual and see all the different characteristics. Many, many. Alternators VR is much simpler in not needing a current regulation function....just a simple VR.

 

[Smokeonthewater]

I did a quick search and it looked like there MIGHT be a few options out there but I didn't really dig into it... if my tractor still had a 6v gen I would be willing to do a lot more legwork...

I will say that a lot of what I saw must have been on the other side of the pond as they were talking about "fitted dynamos" vs "installed generators" and I believe our 8n gennys are incompatible w most british stuff...

 

[Btzj02]

(quoted from post at 13:01:55 07/22/21)
Surely someone makes a decent electronic regulator

You will not be disappointed. It is made in USA so don't expect China prices. Oops. This is a good analog regulator. My bad!

This post was edited by Btzj02 on 07/22/2021 at 08:23 pm.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 23:21:20 07/22/21)

(quoted from post at 13:01:55 07/22/21)
Surely someone makes a decent electronic regulator

You will not be disappointed. It is made in USA so don't expect China prices. Oops. This is a good analog regulator. My bad!

This post was edited by Btzj02 on 07/22/2021 at 08:23 pm.

analog" regulator? What does the mean? They are all "analog", but might be electronic or electro-mechanical. Have yet to see a digital voltage regulator.

 

[Btzj02]

This post was edited by Btzj02 on 07/22/2021 at 08:23 pm.
[/quote]
Your description is more accurate and I suggest all use the info but.....
Analogue is anything that is not electronic, not to be confused with electrical. Electronic meaning transistors, diodes etc. The terminology came from the old days when solenoid relay type switches in the plant were replaced with PLC driven transistor switches. I suppose the digital label came from the fact that transistors have two states and we would label them state 1 or 0. So old style regulators with no electronics are considered analogue and anything with a transistor is digital. In my world an electronic ignition or an electronic voltage regulator in an alternator would both be considered digital. Or if you are old enough to remember, the old rotary phones are analogue and all phones after are digital. Probably a local naming convention in our old turn of the century coal burning power plant but it stuck with me!

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 09:45:42 07/23/21) This post was edited by Btzj02 on 07/22/2021 at 08:23 pm.

analog" regulator? What does the mean? They are all "analog", but might be electronic or electro-mechanical. Have yet to see a digital voltage regulator.[/quote] "suppose" that you are wrong! " I suppose the digital label came from the fact that transistors have two states and we would label them state 1 or 0. So old style regulators with no electronics are considered analogue and anything with a transistor is digital." Transistors were used in analog devices as linear amplifiers well before the digital age and absolutely do not have only an ON and OFF (1 or 0) state.

 

[Btzj02]

JMOR
I say again you are correct. In our world we went from NC/NO devices to 1/0's. Our "over" simplification for understanding was that one device was analogue and one device was digital. Overtime all devices we worked on were either old analogue, (electrical, pneumatic or levers and springs) or new digital, (modern electronics). This over simplification was necessary because as you know, learning new things and changes are more difficult as we get older. You might get a kick out of the movie Pacific Rim. One of the huge robots was considered analogue and the others were digital. The digital robots were shut down by an EMP pulse and the analogue robot survived. Maybe you can shed some light on whether an EMP pulse would knock out my old "analogue" 8N, or would it knock out all the N's with alternators? Maybe something to consider before converting to 12v!
JB :shock:

 

[tugman]

(quoted from post at 22:42:52 07/19/21)

(quoted from post at 01:13:04 07/20/21) O.K.
Today is ground zero.
Get a fresh scratch pad out and double check my results.
Beginning 7-20-21, I am going to tally runability complaints posted here on YT between 6V and 12 V.
Please follow along.
Hugs & Kisses!

eep the bungled 12v conversions by people that didn't know jack about what they were doing separate.

Yah what he said !

 

[tractorguy2]

tractors converted to 12 volts sooner or later will break the starter drive spring

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 14:04:05 07/23/21) tractors converted to 12 volts sooner or later will break the starter drive spring

don't doubt that "sooner or later" bit, but still keeping fingers crossed after 24 years!

 

[R Geiger]

Naw, I broke the gear tho! still worth it tho!

 

[Jim WI]

(quoted from post at 15:49:47 07/22/21)

(quoted from post at 16:01:55 07/22/21)
Surely someone makes a decent electronic regulator

I think JMOR once found a source but its not commercial and definitely not cheap. IIRC the gentleman that developed it is now deceased.

There is no market for a solid state voltage regulator for 6V or 12V DC generators. The reason being every alternator made has a very reliable solid state VR (integrated or separate) and produces way more power. Automotive generators are quickly entering the realm of buggy whips.

TOH

The Fun Projects VR is now owned by Birdhaven Vintage Auto. I've seen recent posts on other web sites indicating that the VR is back in production.

I also found an interesting article about how the VR operates. It's new technology used to implement an old method for adjusting the output of a three-brush generator.
https://cool386.com/regulator/regulator.html

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 16:03:31 07/24/21)

(quoted from post at 15:49:47 07/22/21)

(quoted from post at 16:01:55 07/22/21)
Surely someone makes a decent electronic regulator

I think JMOR once found a source but its not commercial and definitely not cheap. IIRC the gentleman that developed it is now deceased.

There is no market for a solid state voltage regulator for 6V or 12V DC generators. The reason being every alternator made has a very reliable solid state VR (integrated or separate) and produces way more power. Automotive generators are quickly entering the realm of buggy whips.

TOH

The Fun Projects VR is now owned by Birdhaven Vintage Auto. I've seen recent posts on other web sites indicating that the VR is back in production.

I also found an interesting article about how the VR operates. It's new technology used to implement an old method for adjusting the output of a three-brush generator.
https://cool386.com/regulator/regulator.html

I had forgotten the "fun Projects" name. Now whats was the originators name? I will bet Jesse remembers.

TOH

 

[Jim WI]

https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-regan-78629a81/

 

[HarryVanderpool]

Four 12v problems'
Zero 6v problems so far since 7/24
Double check me.
We'll keep counting.....

 

[R Geiger]

(quoted from post at 19:22:15 07/27/21) Four 12v problems'
Zero 6v problems so far since 7/24
Double check me.
We'll keep counting.....

o 6 volt problems once you go 12 volts!!