706/806 development ??

[DrAllis]

I just finished reading the book about the design and development of the John Deere 3010/4010 tractors, which started in 1953/54 ish and tractors released in late 1960. Any IH historians know what the timing was on the 706/806 generation ?? I know they came out in 1963, but when did they start the design/development ?? Thank you.

 

[rustred]

The 660 came out in 59 and ended in 63. I have heard
that it was a fill in unit till the 806 came out. They took
the 560 and and made a few changes like adding
planetaries and bigger tires and speeding the engine up
600 rpm to get an 80 h p tractor. I do not know how early
or year they had the brand new model 806 on the
drawing board.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

There are a few pictures out there of a 706 or 806 disguised as a 560. I used to think the pictures were pre-1960, but now I'm not so sure.

I'm not aware of any publication that focuses specifically on the 06 series.

It would be interesting to learn the actual timeline of the tractor's development. Did IH have something ready by 1960, but thought better of it and took the extra time to make sure it was as perfect as it could be?

 

[DrAllis]

(quoted from post at 06:49:28 11/12/23) There are a few pictures out there of a 706 or 806 disguised as a 560. I used to think the pictures were pre-1960, but now I'm not so sure.

To me, the main testing would have been on the 806 diesel, as the engine was "new" and that would have included the model "RD" injection pump. The other three engines were a pretty well known entity and if the drive line held up at 90+ HP, it should have been fine at 75 HP. But truly, the whole thing from the bell housing on back was all brand new.

This post was edited by DrAllis on 11/12/2023 at 08:36 am.

 

[aged1440]

I was told by an IH parts man the D361 used in the 806 was from Hoegh, the construction side of IH. The 361 was used a lot by them as the turbocharged version DT361. This parts man seemed to know a lot about the back round of the 06 series.

 

[DrAllis]

(quoted from post at 10:39:50 11/12/23) I was told by an IH parts man the D361 used in the 806 was from Hoegh, the construction side of IH. The 361 was used a lot by them as the turbocharged version DT361. This parts man seemed to know a lot about the back round of the 06 series.

I've located information on an IH crawler TD15-B series that was made from 1963 to 1972 and it had the D-361 engine. I don't doubt Hough may have used the engine first, but they weren't an engine builder...IH was.

This post was edited by DrAllis on 11/12/2023 at 11:48 am.

 

[fastfarmall]

You must of had the same parts man, as i did,Leo, he was a sharp guy,he knew more about things than the Owner or Sales did,and they always got to the showing of of new releases. I would like to know more about the who perfected the 361-429 engines!and when they were built!!

 

[560Dennis]

Suggest this book . Very good reading about Farmall development

 

[DrAllis]

(quoted from post at 13:53:39 11/12/23) Suggest this book . Very good reading about Farmall development

<img src=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto166554.jpg>

Thank you, Dennis. That looks like a plan.

 

[the tractor vet]

Well not sure when they went into development , But i can tell you this i saw and drove the vary first one labor day weekend of 1963 , vary first public showing of the 706 and 806 . The guys from the Boardman Ohio I H store went out to the plant with two truck before the big fair started and hauled them back . every year at fair time i took my vacation from my job for the fair and get ready to go back to school . what my one friend and i did we had a side gig where we washed and waxed the tractors from the Boardman store and set up the lot installing the 4x4 poles for the lights and hanging the lights . Plus we got to PLAY with the tractors and got paid for it Plus gate stickers for our cars and a big roll of FREE tickets . 63 it was really dry and to get the holes in the ground we used a new 560 D with fast hitch for the post hole auger for down pressure . My buddy and i were getting the ft row poles i when Francis and Bob pulled in with the 706 and 806 , Both diesels , wide ft on the 806 and it HAD flat tops and three point and dual remotes , the 706 was a narrow ft fast hitch with clam shells and dual remotes . Man they were BIG . I had to go tell my Boss about this new BIG HUGE tractor as he not only owned three large construction companys he had to of the nicest farms around and he LOVED NEW big and powerful . Luckly he was at the shop as i went by headed for the farm and went back and told him . HE said lets go i want to see it . so back to the fair grounds and he got talking to Francis and all i heard was HOW MUCH as he pulled a company check out of his wallet and started writing Francis started back pedaling as G F wanted it out at the FARM NOW , but agreed to let it stay for the fair till 11:30 PM Monday and it had best be setting at the farm by midnight and if the tractor was to be driven then i was the one to drive it , that way if something went WRONG he knew who's Donkey was going to get relocated up around his EARS. My uncle had a large tater farm back then about 24 miles south and he had switched to I H in 58 when the first 560 showed up at the start of harvest and the 460 arrived in the spring of 59 . I told him about the 806 after the fair was over and G F had his already doing fall plowing and my uncle went up to see it . that following Saturday i went with my uncle down to the dealer south of him and Bought the one that had just arrived before it it the ground off the truck and fro0m the truck into the shop and the ft end was widened out along with changing the back wheels from transport to field and that afternoon it was being hooked to the john Beam new harvester and heading out to dig taters . when spring arrived a new 706 D arrived at my uncles , The next year G F got 806 #2 , thirty five some years later i bought 806 #2 as it needed some work and now in full swing of working on I H tractors getting it back field ready was a piece of cake . I sold it to one of my customers who still has it , Lost track of my uncles and G F #1

 

[NY 986]

I have also been told that the 361 came from the construction and truck side of IH. The 282 pre-existed in the 560. I was also
told that most of the work on the 06 series happened after the introduction of JD's New Generation tractors. All companies during
those days were experimenting with new designs so I will not say IH was caught flat footed. But as bad as IH needed something to
replace the 560 it made no sense to hold the introduction over 2 1/2 years after JD's introduction unless there was no product
ready to be introduced.

 

[DrAllis]

(quoted from post at 17:41:23 11/12/23) I have also been told that the 361 came from the construction and truck side of IH. The 282 pre-existed in the 560. I was also
told that most of the work on the 06 series happened after the introduction of JD's New Generation tractors. All companies during
those days were experimenting with new designs so I will not say IH was caught flat footed. But as bad as IH needed something to
replace the 560 it made no sense to hold the introduction over 2 1/2 years after JD's introduction unless there was no product
ready to be introduced.

**** I'm going to guess, but in MF's case, I don't think they had any new designs in the Fall of 1960 when the 4010 came out. And when they did come out with the new "1100", it (to me) was a 4010/4020 wanna-be !! Front hydraulic pump that was a closed center system. Hydraulic brakes incorporated into an inboard planetary final drive. Higher up/more forward platform, etc. They upgraded their transmission/multi-power design for the increased HP, which I think was better than the synchro-range Deere feature-wise.

 

[NY 986]

JD went down too many financial rabbit holes which I believe closed the door on more innovation for the 4010. JD wasted time
looking into V4 and V6 engines just to be different. The Dubuque tractors would have benefitted from less money wasted.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

(quoted from post at 17:41:23 11/12/23) I have also been told that the 361 came from the construction and truck side of IH. The 282 pre-existed in the 560. I was also
told that most of the work on the 06 series happened after the introduction of JD's New Generation tractors. All companies during
those days were experimenting with new designs so I will not say IH was caught flat footed. But as bad as IH needed something to
replace the 560 it made no sense to hold the introduction over 2 1/2 years after JD's introduction unless there was no product
ready to be introduced.

Yeah but weren't there problems with the 10 series? Nobody seems to want a 4010, but they'll get in fist fights over a 4020.

I was thinking that teething problems with the 10 series out of the gate may have caused IH to delay the 06 series to make sure they got it right. Maybe not 2-1/2 years... Let's say they were planning on rolling it out in 1961, but uh-oh, Deere screwed up, we've got more time.

Unfortunately we will probably never know exactly what happened. If there was any documentation of the process, it probably didn't survive the Tenneco purge.

 

[DR. EVIL]

The D & DT-361 engines, and later the 400-series engines were built on one side of the main aisle at IH's
MELROSE PARK, ILLINOIS PLANT, all their crawler tractors were built on the other side. If you look back on
Tractor Data, the WD-9, SWD-9 600& 650 also built at Melrose Park. I understand the plant has been torn down
now to increase the size of the parking lot and the shopping mall east of the IH plant.
I will say one thing, Dad was shopping hard for a bigger tractor fall of 1968 after he got done picking
corn. He'd been searching farm sales as far north in Illinois up to the Wisconsin border and as far south as
central Illinois. For whatever reason he thought he needed a 706 diesel, with a D282, really not that much
more power than the 450 GAS we'd run since 1965. Dad had next to last bid on a real nice CASE 930 diesel, but
it was still only a 4 bottom tractor, just like our 450, following Saturday another 15 miles further from home
and another 10-15 degrees colder Dad had last bid on a '63 4010 diesel, supposedly had the 4020 kit in the
engine, front tires, 9.5Lx15's were almost bald, GY 15.5x38 rears were originals from factory, about 50-60%
tread but had spun a lot on ice with crushed rock froze into it. I didn't quite have enough cloths on to run
an open station tractor 25 miles home in the late afternoon in late December, but the neighbor we traded help
with followed me home and we took turns driving the tractor. I was worried about the tractor running out of
fuel, the Guage showed empty but not sure it worked. By the time I got home both frt tires were slicks and
wore thru the top 2 plies. A couple weeks later Dad ran it to HIS Deere dealer for a tune-up and blew a front
tire 5 miles into a 20 mile trip, and spent the rest of the day getting new implement 11Lx15's mounted and
installed. The livestock trucker Dad drove for had his BIG heated shop unlocked. Anyhow, our 4010 was THE ONLY
4010 ANYWHERE around our part of the county. I don't know of another one in our half of the county, but there
were at least 200+ maybe more 4020's, mostly diesel, quite a few gasoline, even a couple LP. The neighbor a
mile away I worked for had two 4020D's, a NFE and a WFE with cab, bought a 4320 & nfe open station side
console 4020 and traded the two old 4020's in, later got a used WFE gasoline 4020, then a 4230.
I've read stories in Red Power Magazine about field testing new tractors out in Arizona. There were
hundreds of farmers around Rock Island that wanted to test tractors for FARMALL. GUY i bought my first Cub
Cadet from wanted to know if I could get him a 1086 or 1486 to put a couple hundred hours on. I laughed, said
I knew everybody that could approve that but that kind of testing is watched much closer, has to be a plan and
a secure remote location, and several layers of management approval before a new tractor is made into a used
un-sellable tractor.
I'm sure many of you guys have read my posts that a Good Day on our 4010 was one I didn't have to walk
back to the house, and those days were far fewer than many of you would expect. Yep, 1949 R diesel owned for 6
weeks spring of 1964, still had 22 acres left to plow when it left the Farm, the Super M-TA very capably
replaced it rest of the year. '40 B replaced a '39 H when the '54 Super H became our #2 tractor for chores,
haying, planting, and anything else that needed doing, and the '63 4010-D, it sold private locally after the
PTO tried shifting from 540 to 1000 rpm running the 6 ft Brillion bush hog mowing up the home farm the week
before the farm sold at auction. Terry Warner of Warner's Turbo Shop always had guys coming looking for good
tractors, Terry had rebuilt the engine, made the 380 a 404, rebuilt the inj pump, and did the double split to
rebuild the pto. SON of a guy Dad went to high school with bought it. Tractor had an M&W turbo put on then ran
the 15 miles to it's new home. Was close to a year later the new owner came looking for Dad to see how much of
the new rearend in the 4010 Dad was going to pay. Answer was ZERO. WE BOUGHT the 4010 December 1968, sold June
or July of '72 and spent money and more money every year on it. 4 new tires, new paint, rebuilt starter &
generator, replaced draft sensing seals, stra gel enough, never had to mess with the hyd pump or couplings.
Think it got new pto and transmission clutch around the time of the major overhaul of the engine.
This was a tractor that pulled 4-14's with a Midwest plow harrow, 12 ft Kewaunee disk, a #30 pull type
combine over 40 acres of oats a Super M could easily do, and cultivated 40 acres of soybeans and 120 acres of
corn every year, biggest complaint about cultivating was it wouldn't turn tight enough to take the 4 rows next
to the 4 rows I just cultivated, had to skip 4 and take 4. But the last 40 acres of corn I cultivated I ran
1900-2000 rpm in 7th gear, didn't take long!

 

[DrAllis]

Yeah, that 540/1000 PTO thing I didn't realize the "10" series was completely different than the redesigned "20" series that ran oil out the rear end when you switched shafts. The change gears were up front on the 10"s and in the rear housing on the 20's. The front PTO was a pretty cool thing (I thought as a teenager) but don't remember one single neighbor ever using it for anything. Must not have worked out for Deere either as the 30 series didn't offer it. In the book about the 3010/4010 design/development they argued the one large closed center hydraulic pump would be better than multiple pumps on the tractor for other functions. Well, they had to use a trans lube/charge pump to feed that main front pump, so that's kinda shot down that theory didn't it ?? Then, there was the upkeep of the front pump drive coupler. Finally, they didn't consider any type of a hyd pump drive on the brand new designed engine?? I've run a lot of them as a teen. Never ever liked the dashboard hydraulic levers or how they "felt" when using them. Deere spent a lot of money on that hydraulic system and I just never thought it was any more special than what I was used to. And the comments about the V-4 banger in the 3010....what the he11 was that engineering team thinking ???

This post was edited by DrAllis on 11/13/2023 at 08:49 am.

 

[NY 986]

The problems with the 4010 were overblown. Greasing the slip sleeve on the implement PTO shaft does wonders for protecting the
driveline. If you had to use a blacksmith hammer to get the PTO hooked up you either had a rusted slip sleeve or a bend. The 4010
here since new never broke off a stub running a wire baler or 2 row chopper. The only time there was a problem was when a certain
person (me) forgot to use the lock tab the dealer suggested in changing from 1000 RPM to 540 RPM. You are right. There is a lot
we will never know about the development of the 06 series. But the bottom line was JD released their tractor in August of 1960 and
the earliest I have heard the 06 being out was May of 1963 in the Midwest. Could not buy an 806 until almost October of 1963
around here. JD sold nearly 57,000 4010 tractors from August 1960 until spring of 1963 when the 4020's were out here in NY. I
would say that the 1010 and 2010 contributed more to the 10 series mediocre reputation.

 

[NY 986]

The thinking was market distinction in terms of the V motor. But at least then there was no substitute for an inline motor. The
mid section PTO was for implements including a side mount mower of which we had one for our 4010. This freed the back PTO for a
trailer type hay conditioner. The introduction of the NH Haybine in 1964 negated having that feature and JD never pushed to build
another implement that would run off of the mid section PTO.

 

[the tractor vet]

Books wrong , the fall of 59 the neighbor to my uncle got his 4010 the fall of 59 just after labor day . and it went on the tater harvester as my uncle and him worked together . Yews the 4010 had more then the 560 but still did not have enough to pull the tater harvester in the hills it needed help . Not till the 806 arrived did we had one tractor that could pull it on the hills and the new one was not self powered with a temperamental v 4 wisconson . even when paul traded for the 64 i think it was a 64 4020 it did not hold a candle to the 806 .

 

[NY 986]

The 4010 was not out in 1959.