806 - slow going - one problem after another

[sonnythomas]

1964 806 is coming along....Piddly things happen. Still won't start on it's own, but idles like a purring kitten and then with full throttle it roars like King Kong. At idle it will take off in high torque, high range and 4th (8th?) gear. We pulled a tree out of the ground using low gear at idle. Engine never sputtered. Tires dug in and chewed out the ground.

When we got started on the 806 we had to change fuel line around to proper alignment.

Hydraulic leak repaired and 7 gallons put in.

Replaced water pump (only took 376 miles). Wrong water pump twice and correct water pump leaked right off the bat. New water pump has a pressed on plate for the fan blade.

Schwartz front end - parts replaced and now steering like a Cadillac.

So we have the right brake leaking - another item to fix.

Bigger problem came today. Transmission leaking hydraulic fluid to clutch area.
??????????
Brother says we have to split the tractor to replace seal. Question; Could it be the seal dried out after 4 or 5 years sitting and could it revive on it's own?????

Splitting the tractor would mean IH/Case shop and around $1500 to $2000.
Is the 806 worth it? This will put me at $5000 invested.......

 

[the tractor vet]

well as for the SPLIT , how good are you at Fabbing ?? if you can weld cut and drill ya make up0 a set of splitting stands and make them heavy and adjustable with good wheels or casters fully adjustable for width and height . You are looking at TWo seals one on the trans input and one on the IDPTO input , you may also fine that OH you need a NEW IDPTO input shaft along with a NEW clutch pressure plate throw out bearing and pilot bearing and a flywheel regrind . Ya make your splitting stands so that you block the rear and move the ft. end forward . I can walk you thru the split . Now as for your cold starting problem , WELLLLLLLLL this is gong to get into your PIGGY bank . Hard start cold can be caused BY low compression due to ring damage / wore cylinder liners , Improper valve set or valve stand out on the valve seat , Low injection pump cranking pressures and or injector dribble , low cranking speed of the starter and or low battery output. Other questions let me know .

 

[caterpillar guy]

Like TV said you can make some splitting stands pretty easy. Square tubing is your friend there. If you split it take a good look at the back of the pressure plate and the PTO drive spline on the trans mission. If they are worn much might just as well change them both while you are there. If one of them goes south you will be back in there and have to do it then. You will not have a choice as there will be no PTO,hydraulics,brakes or steering. As for the leaking brake is it the pedal valve or the brake piston seal. For the starting you don't say if the starter is spinning up to speed or not or even works. Lots of possibilities there too. Shot starter shot ring gear which you might as well look at while doing the split. You can flip the ring gear if you need to or turn it on the flywheel or replace will be your choice again. Then you could just need a set of brushes in the starter or a whole refreshment to it. Welcome to the fun and expensive world of old machinery ownership. When done it will be a good starting and running piece of equipment. I've had mine since I got out of high school about bought it in 1978. If I remember the pictures right yours has the RD pump on it. They are not prone to problems to me. I just changed mine after all these years and it was probably the original a 50 plus year old pump.

 

[chuck machinist]

(quoted from post at 11:39:01 07/31/21) Like TV said you can make some splitting stands pretty easy. Square tubing is your friend there. If you split it take a good look at the back of the pressure plate and the PTO drive spline on the trans mission. If they are worn much might just as well change them both while you are there. If one of them goes south you will be back in there and have to do it then. You will not have a choice as there will be no PTO,hydraulics,brakes or steering. As for the leaking brake is it the pedal valve or the brake piston seal. For the starting you don't say if the starter is spinning up to speed or not or even works. Lots of possibilities there too. Shot starter shot ring gear which you might as well look at while doing the split. You can flip the ring gear if you need to or turn it on the flywheel or replace will be your choice again. Then you could just need a set of brushes in the starter or a whole refreshment to it. Welcome to the fun and expensive world of old machinery ownership. When done it will be a good starting and running piece of equipment. I've had mine since I got out of high school about bought it in 1978. If I remember the pictures right yours has the RD pump on it. They are not prone to problems to me. I just changed mine after all these years and it was probably the original a 50 plus year old pump.

Here is a concept that you may want to consider.CM

 

[sonnythomas]

(quoted from post at 23:09:42 07/30/21) well as for the SPLIT , how good are you at Fabbing ?? if you can weld cut and drill ya make up0 a set of splitting stands and make them heavy and adjustable with good wheels or casters fully adjustable for width and height . You are looking at TWo seals one on the trans input and one on the IDPTO input , you may also fine that OH you need a NEW IDPTO input shaft along with a NEW clutch pressure plate throw out bearing and pilot bearing and a flywheel regrind . Ya make your splitting stands so that you block the rear and move the ft. end forward . I can walk you thru the split . Now as for your cold starting problem , WELLLLLLLLL this is gong to get into your PIGGY bank . Hard start cold can be caused BY low compression due to ring damage / wore cylinder liners , Improper valve set or valve stand out on the valve seat , Low injection pump cranking pressures and or injector dribble , low cranking speed of the starter and or low battery output. Other questions let me know .

Okay, instead of 2 six volt batteries we went with a high output 12 volt battery. Spins engine pretty good. It just seems like it sounds like horsepower to spare.

Biggest thing is the injection pump was replaced. We couldn't find anyone who knew how to time the injection pump. IH pump....There is so many "-" marks, a 10, so many (-) marks, a 15 and two "-" marks. We have a X showing, but the mark on the face isn't there.
Berkerly's IH/Case (Galesburg, Ill.) parts man told us they had run into this before and gave us a phone number to call - stating this man can talk us through timing the pump....He also noted 4 or 5 degrees one way or the other can make a huge difference.
So we're waiting on a return phone call.........

See pic

 

[caterpillar guy]

For the RD pump you time it to the 50 degree mark with the cover off the side of the pump there are marks on the pump housing on each side of the opening. They align with the end of the shaft /pin in the pump. Some don't have the X on them. They will have a indent like a center for turning the shaft in a lathe. That is the end you use for the timing. Now for the Marks on the flywheel use some cleaner as you turn the crank/ engine over watching through the hole on the same side as the pump. these marks are on the flywheel you want the 50 degree mark. With it lined up with the pointer on the 2 bolts in the window/hole in flywheel housing the shaft should be centered on the mark on the pump housing. This will be in time now. If it needs adjusted slightly to match up take the front cover off the timing cover on the front of the engine. there will be 3 bolts in there loosen them up some there will be a notch in the hub to turn the pump shaft with. there is a tool for that. I used a bar and wrench to turn it slightly for correct timing. Then tighten bolts back up after checking alignment. now loosen fuel lines at injectors if bleeding is needed and with in a very short bit it should start. Not all lines would need to be loosened. If you need more direction or help call me 989 413 5684. You have had it running so bleeding should not need to be done.

 

[sonnythomas]

(quoted from post at 09:44:37 07/31/21) For the RD pump you time it to the 50 degree mark with the cover off the side of the pump there are[b:d6203e2fd6] marks on the pump housing on each side of the opening. [/b:d6203e2fd6]They align with the end of the shaft /pin in the pump. Some don't have the X on them. They will have a indent like a center for turning the shaft in a lathe. That is the end you use for the timing. Now for the Marks on the flywheel use some cleaner as you turn the crank/ engine over watching through the hole on the same side as the pump. these marks are on the flywheel you want the 50 degree mark. With it lined up with the pointer on the 2 bolts in the window/hole in flywheel housing the shaft should be centered on the mark on the pump housing. This will be in time now. If it needs adjusted slightly to match up take the front cover off the timing cover on the front of the engine. there will be 3 bolts in there loosen them up some there will be a notch in the hub to turn the pump shaft with. there is a tool for that. I used a bar and wrench to turn it slightly for correct timing. Then tighten bolts back up after checking alignment. now loosen fuel lines at injectors if bleeding is needed and with in a very short bit it should start. Not all lines would need to be loosened. If you need more direction or help call me 989 413 5684. You have had it running so bleeding should not need to be done.

That's where are problem is. We don't have any "marks on the pump housing on each side of the opening."

 

[the tractor vet]

Well ya want to find TDC then pull the valve cover and yes they are a pain in the drain to pull . when both intake and Exhaust valve rocker arms are loose then you are real close and that is when you look at the fly wheel thru the inspection hole/ timing hole on the right hand side of the bell housing . then you can find the TDC mark then ya can find the mark in the pump . Now what the exact setting is here again i woulld have to gop to the truck and look in my BOOKS but thinking on a RD it is like fifty something degrees BTDC just don't hold me to that it's been a long day of barley pop bottle bottom inspection . and for now i am going to go burn part of a dead cow.

 

[DeltaRed]

A split isn't that hard of you have a
stand
And you can easily make one.Yes,that 806
is worth spending the money
With my 1256,I had $20,000 in it in the
first 5 years.Now 15 plus years later,I
haven't spent a dime since.Picture is
from this spring.

 

[DeltaRed]

If you stop now,you waste/throw away the
money you have already spent.Fix it,what
ever it cost.And then use the crap out
of it.Still cheaper than a new one.It
will out last ypu.An 806 is still a
popular tractor.A good one will still
bring good money.Who knows,the
next/'replacement' tractor may have even
more problems.Fix it and keep it.
You won't be sorry.

 

[sonnythomas]

(quoted from post at 13:04:49 08/01/21) If you stop now,you waste/throw away the
money you have already spent.Fix it,what
ever it cost.And then use the crap out
of it.Still cheaper than a new one.It
will out last ypu.An 806 is still a
popular tractor.A good one will still
bring good money.Who knows,the
next/'replacement' tractor may have even
more problems.Fix it and keep it.
You won't be sorry.

I'm thinking. It just most seems to want more done while it's split. It's got a internal hydraulic leak. I want to fix the leak and that's all.
I split my 400 Farmall without any issue whatsoever. Split, installed a new torque amplifier and put it back together the same day...Granted, the 806 is bit more involved. My 400 developed a leak, small one. Just added when it needed it and kept right on using it. Went 10 years with that leak and it didn't bother me a bit, nor the man that bought it...

$1500 to $2000 to split and replace a seal or cracked fitting seems a bit much.
Going to talk with the next door garage and see what he thinks.
Thanks.....

 

[sonnythomas]

(quoted from post at 12:35:54 08/01/21) A split isn't that hard of you have a
stand
And you can easily make one.Yes,that 806
is worth spending the money
With my 1256,I had $20,000 in it in the
first 5 years.Now 15 plus years later,I
haven't spent a dime since.Picture is
from this spring.
<img src=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto96175.jpg>

Thank you....Got it copied and giving to my brother.

 

[sonnythomas]

(quoted from post at 12:35:54 08/01/21) A split isn't that hard of you have a
stand
And you can easily make one.Yes,that 806
is worth spending the money
With my 1256,I had $20,000 in it in the
first 5 years.Now 15 plus years later,I
haven't spent a dime since.Picture is
from this spring.
<img src=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto96175.jpg>

Know where a big 1256 is. It's been sitting over a year, but the man doesn't want to sell.

 

[DeltaRed]

The biggest thing will be labor.Just do
the job yourself. Since you've done your
400,you're somewhat familiar.BTW,I also
have a 400.

 

[caterpillar guy]

The marks you are looking for are on the sloped edge of the housing. At each end of the opening there are little like a fine cut more like somebody made a slit in the surface of the aluminum. It's a very clear and clean mark. then there is the end of the pump shaft you align the end of the shaft with the 2 marks end is on center. I suppose you could pull the number one injector and feel for compression as it turns up on to find TDC of the compression stroke then look for your 50 degree mark. Not saying you can't put a lot of money into old tractors. Your 400 probably had not been left to neglect as long as this tractor has. Setting does nobody any good for a tractor. And if you switch horses mid stream you may find another one is a bigger money pit than what you think this one is. I would suspect the guy didn't tell the whole story on what it needed or forgot from it setting. You might even find that you need to do this much work to one you buy that is running and appears to be in decent shape. You have my number from the previous reply if you want to call.

 

[ss55]

I would check the condition of the engine and the cost to repair it before investing more money in other parts of the tractor. That 361 engine may not be cheap to rebuild, or easy to get everything done right.

 

[sonnythomas]

Thanks. Copied. Going to talk with Bedwell's Farm Equipment about repairing leak. Not as far away as Galesburg........

 

[sonnythomas]

Neglect is hardly the word to use...Mercy (please).

For whatever reason the hydraulic leak has stopped.

We've checked out so many things and cleaned and repaired. Took it for test hop down the road and brought it back. With throttle it seemed starving for fuel. 1/2 throttle was okay. Got it back to the shop and told my brother it was starving for fuel...Scratched his head and then said; "I forgot to turn on fuel." No worries. My brother will recover from the head bashing I gave him. Still...my brother has the patience of Saint. It was getting fuel some how. Pulled fuel line and it was plugged. He had blow back through the valve twice to get fuel. So we had just put in 5 gallon of new fuel and evidently stirred up whatever was in the tank. So we drained the tank.

Draining the tank we found the fine mesh screen had been cut off the wired shut. Brother flushed the tank and got a coffee cup of mud looking stuff. He used some fuel tank cleaner and got another coffee cup the mud looking stuff. Not satisfied my brother used a garden hose and put about 30 gallon of water through the tank. Flushed it again with some tank cleaner and it came out good.

Good doesn't tell it. Long flexible flash light in the tank showed black stuff solid to the bottom of the tank and what walls we could see. It doesn't move. Tried scrapping it and it didn't scrap at all. Looks like tar. Oil cleaner and carburetor cleaner doesn't touch it. Me, leave it alone.......

Still, something kept the tractor running. Brother dug deeper. He pulled the top off one of the fuel filters and found no filter! What?! Yep, no filter and no fuel either. ??? He found the seal washer bad allowing air and the pump to suck the canister empty.
Yes, we had the filters, but more concerned of just getting the tractor running and correcting and fixing what we found.

So he takes the canister off, cleans and cleans the gunk out of the bottom. Lo big time. There's a hole in it. See daylight plain as day. Well, some brazing needed.

And again the yellow comes. When he cleaned the canister the red came first and under ther red was yellow.
Okay, the engine shows yellow under the red - block and head. The cast iron water jacket is yellow. And now the fuel canisters.
Could this engine have been meant for something other than farm tractor.

Out of order. Before all this happened, engine sounding like it could beat King Kong in a roaring contest, a retired mechanic just down from my sister's shop came over. We let him drive and throttle the tractor. He was impressed. Responsive like fine tuned racer car, he said, and power to spare.
So a little test. We hooked on to a embedded concrete barrel. Just idling in low gear it began to pull and then the tires began to spin. Never broke idle. Phil, the retired mechanic, said he didn't know what the starting problem was, but the tractor wasn't lacking for horse power.

And again, another pump tech was contacted. Pictures sent to him by my sister. He noted; There was no way to time the pump. You'll have test each time you change the degrees.....

This post was edited by sonnythomas on 08/05/2021 at 07:36 pm.