821/4000?...pto question ....

[marlin54]

Ok my goal is to be able to find a way to install a PTO in this 821....So I bought a 821 with a loader I thought..... I know that they were mostly built without a 3 pt hitch and with no PTOs ...and that many were added later... ....so the numbers by the starter is 821,,,,and between the diamonds is 151297 and according to the production serial numbers I think its a late 1962....basically the end of the 100 's series.....the casting numbers on the right side of the block CONN 6015C..........from all the previous paint ...it appeared to me it was a Red belly Ford but with a Blue head..... I dont know what that was about ...it has a gas motor,,,it has a 4 speed ....and on the right side of motor is a knob you push up and down for a Shuttle....is very useful for me as I dont have to shift ...Its great...love it.....this shuttle is the best idea I ever seen ...... easy to use .now the problem is
The rear end just did not look right ...the brakes and all was different...they looked newer to me .it did not look like the old ones .?
So the numbers on the axle is CONN 4013 E.....and the transmission casting number on the right side under the foot plate is 310835.....the problem is the seat has been built out of very heavy 7/16 steel...and when you take the top of the seat cover off you can see down in the tractor and you see a shaft with 3 sprockets for 3 matching chains....and the looks of the way the seat frame is made i think there might have been a shaft and matching sprocket up top attaced to a shaft running out the back of the seat riser.... probably had bearings on both ends for a shaft to go out the back for maybe a forklift mast? and if you look at the pics there is 2 round 4" holes cut into the steel front and back which are now covered with plates ....that would explain why the seat frame is made so ridged and strong...that whole seat is bolted down.......
Someone told me it looks like I have a 4000 rear end and transmission? so If I pull the shaft out can I slide another standard 4000 PTO shaft back in ?..how do I know what is the correct doner rear end I need to look for ...and I know the side plate for the PTO lever would have to be changed to be able to engage it ..in and out ....is there more parts that that I would need ? Im just way over my pay scale here to figure this out..I have fabricated a 3 point and works great but I want a PTO..I just want to know if its possible to get a working PTO in this tractor...Is it possible this tractor was built at the end of the production and then they just might have used the new series parts ..to finnish up the orders ....like the .rearend and trans ? ..

 

[marlin54]

more pics

 

[Sean in PA]

C0NN for the beginning of a casting code means that the casting was designed in 1960. Most casting designs were used for at least a few years once they had proven themselves, so all those numbers tell us is that the rear axle trumpet and the engine block were both made in or after 1960.

The 4000 transmissions and rear axles were identical to the 801 series, except for the S-O-S transmissions, so I don't know how somebody could claim that it "looks like a 400 rear end and transmission". The trans is stamped with the model number for an 821, so at least that transmission was in an 821 when it left the factory.

I vaguely remember seeing a tractor with that raised box and the chain gears under the seat on another tractor years ago. It was also missing whatever the chains originally provided the power for. I don't know of anything Ford sold that had that setup, but there were a lot of after market companies that made things for Ford tractors since they were so popular and easy to modify.

it appeared to me it was a Red belly Ford but with a Blue head..... I dont know what that was about

Many old Ford tractors have had parts swapped around over the years to keep them running.

Can you post a picture of the "shuttle" handle?

 

[marlin54]

yes this is not like the Sherman style as it is on the right side of the bellhousing...I can say that when I got the trator home and found out a lifter had broke the top off and decided to split the tractor I took advantage of that and I replaced the thansmission input shaft seal...and maybe the bearing too but cant remember but that gave me the chance to see how the lever worked for the shuttle....io if your looking straight into the bell housing as you move the lever back and forth there is a gear that is on the input shat and it just slides in and out ....If youhave the bearng out and can see directy thru the hole the first thing you see is that gear ....and moving the lever back and fort makes t slide back and forth just like the theow out bearing ...thats all it does ...and somehow that makes the main trans shat spin right ot left ...

 

[marlin54]

Ok Sean ...so I went back and found some pctures of when I changed the miserable seal and bearing...what a miserable thing to find the right bearing and seal...I remember spendng a week trying to just do that...but I dont have any pics of the gear I was describing to you...but it had to move in and out of this pinion gear for back and forth direction of the main shaft.....I read somewhere that Warner/Swasy had a set up like this as others but who made this I dont know...

 

[Sean in PA]

Yeah, there were a number of third party "auxiliary transmissions" back in the day. some more popular than others, with the Shermans being the most popular. I don't recognize that shuttle control, or those gears, but I do recognize those three sprockets for the chain drive under the seat, but I never found out what they were used for. I was thinking maybe some kind of trencher or possibly a tiller.

 

[marlin54]

Yeah, there were a number of third party "auxiliary transmissions" back in the day. some more popular than others, with the Shermans being the most popular. I don't recognize that shuttle control, or those gears, but I do recognize those three sprockets for the chain drive under the seat, but I never found out what they were used for. I was thinking maybe some kind of trencher or possibly a tiller.

I just trying to see if I can put a PTO in this tractor if I remove the shaft thats in it now? I know I would need the left side round cover wth the lever to engage it but is there more than that to make it work?

 

[tractorford]

well taint that a hoot! i got those same sprockets on mine. well i'll be...

is there a way you get a snake/sewer cam shot of the area underneath those sprockets, it almost looks like you might have a zombie pto housing sitting under there, just missing some internals in it--- hard to tell from just the top shots

could be you'd need a pto shaft, pto shaft rear plate, bolts, etc, hows that rear end on the outside look like

 

[KCM]

Interesting pictures. Concerning the reversing/shuttle transmission, I suspect it is a Sherman. The lever for the reversing transmission does come out of the right side on a Sherman. I suspect when you replaced the input seal you actually removed the Sherman nose piece and input shaft and not the stock non-Sherman nose piece (which would be longer). The Sherman unit fits between the engine and transmission and has gears inside to reverse the direction. Shifting forward directly connects the input shaft to the transmission, and back engages a reversing gear instead. The shift lever linkage does not look like a Sherman, but could have easily been modified.

As for the sprockets, the first thing that comes to mind is they are for a front assist axle such as an Elenco or Sherman/Napco. I've read the Elenco used a 3-sprocket drive. The drive, though, would have come out the side rather than the top. I thought maybe the sprockets were used to drive a hydraulic pump that bolted to the seat, but having the sprockets attached to the transmission to differential coupler means the sprockets only turns when the tractor is in motion, and reverse when going backwards. So a pump makes no sense.

Concerning the PTO, I have a military tug that somebody added a PTO shaft to. Most likely the parts to engage the PTO are already installed in the tractor, just no shaft or shift lever. You can remove the left inspection cover, which normally has the PTO shift lever, and see if the splined shift collar and shift rod is there. It would be below the coupler that has the sprockets. If so, then you just need a shaft and cover with shift lever. If not, then you need all the missing shift collar parts too. I thought I read that there is a plug between the differential and hydraulic housings when no PTO is present, but that can probably just be knocked out when the PTO shaft is inserted and left in the tractor (or fished out with a magnet from your seat opening).

 

[marlin54]

well taint that a hoot! i got those same sprockets on mine. well i'll be...

is there a way you get a snake/sewer cam shot of the area underneath those sprockets, it almost looks like you might have a zombie pto housing sitting under there, just missing some internals in it--- hard to tell from just the top shots

could be you'd need a pto shaft, pto shaft rear plate, bolts, etc, hows that rear end on the outside look like

well taint that a hoot! i got those same sprockets on mine. well i'll be...

is there a way you get a snake/sewer cam shot of the area underneath those sprockets, it almost looks like you might have a zombie pto housing sitting under there, just missing some internals in it--- hard to tell from just the top shots

could be you'd need a pto shaft, pto shaft rear plate, bolts, etc, hows that rear end on the outside look like

 

[marlin54]

well taint that a hoot! i got those same sprockets on mine. well i'll be...

is there a way you get a snake/sewer cam shot of the area underneath those sprockets, it almost looks like you might have a zombie pto housing sitting under there, just missing some internals in it--- hard to tell from just the top shots

could be you'd need a pto shaft, pto shaft rear plate, bolts, etc, hows that rear end on the outside look like

well here are the pics and your were right.... just like you said there was a Zomie setup under the fluid ......by removing the left side round cover where to Lever should be I can see the spline inside a cast tube ....and also the welch plug that would need to be knocked out so I could push the PTO shaft all the way to the spline ...and now the fluid is gong to be all the same and not seperate sections...and I hope the sprocket wont be in the way of the shaft...and so now that I know that .... I sent pictures of the rear end as this 100 series 821 has somehow got a 1000 seriess rear end I think?? The pictures show Drum brakes and casting numbers that I dont think are for 100 series ....so I hope someone can Identify what rear end this is and hopefull I can find a PTO with the right length and splines to match...

 

[marlin54]

Interesting pictures. Concerning the reversing/shuttle transmission, I suspect it is a Sherman. The lever for the reversing transmission does come out of the right side on a Sherman. I suspect when you replaced the input seal you actually removed the Sherman nose piece and input shaft and not the stock non-Sherman nose piece (which would be longer). The Sherman unit fits between the engine and transmission and has gears inside to reverse the direction. Shifting forward directly connects the input shaft to the transmission, and back engages a reversing gear instead. The shift lever linkage does not look like a Sherman, but could have easily been modified.

As for the sprockets, the first thing that comes to mind is they are for a front assist axle such as an Elenco or Sherman/Napco. I've read the Elenco used a 3-sprocket drive. The drive, though, would have come out the side rather than the top. I thought maybe the sprockets were used to drive a hydraulic pump that bolted to the seat, but having the sprockets attached to the transmission to differential coupler means the sprockets only turns when the tractor is in motion, and reverse when going backwards. So a pump makes no sense.

Concerning the PTO, I have a military tug that somebody added a PTO shaft to. Most likely the parts to engage the PTO are already installed in the tractor, just no shaft or shift lever. You can remove the left inspection cover, which normally has the PTO shift lever, and see if the splined shift collar and shift rod is there. It would be below the coupler that has the sprockets. If so, then you just need a shaft and cover with shift lever. If not, then you need all the missing shift collar parts too. I thought I read that there is a plug between the differential and hydraulic housings when no PTO is present, but that can probably just be knocked out when the PTO shaft is inserted and left in the tractor (or fished out with a magnet from your seat opening).

Idid what you said and yes I see the spline from the trans thru the shift lever removal...Now the big welsh plug needs to e kknout out and somehoe find a correct length of a PO shaft and a shift lever cover ...I dont think I have the 100 series rear end but a !000 series...so that I hope I can figure it out...

 

[marlin54]

Yeah, there were a number of third party "auxiliary transmissions" back in the day. some more popular than others, with the Shermans being the most popular. I don't recognize that shuttle control, or those gears, but I do recognize those three sprockets for the chain drive under the seat, but I never found out what they were used for. I was thinking maybe some kind of trencher or possibly a tiller.

I think a forklift mast ...but the seat does not allow you to turn around and no levers for that either...So I really dont know why it was on here,,,

 

[KCM]

Looks like you are missing the parts that attach to the casting at the rear of the transmission. These are what engage and disengage the shaft. You'd be better off getting the whole assembly from a parts tractor and replacing the casting with the complete assembly. That would require splitting the tractor. It looks like that complete shifter assembly and the cover with the lever are all the same from 1955 up to 1964, 100 or 1000 series, except for select-o-speed transmissions. Same with PTO shaft. Once split, you can put the seal in between the hydraulic chamber and the differential housing. There should also be a bushing in the housing which is probably already there.

The parts manuals on the CNH site are great references to see what parts fit which models.

New Holland Agriculture Genuine Parts | Online Store | MyCNH US Store

Get Genuine OEM Parts and Replacement Parts for New Holland AG. Discover special offers and seasonal sales and events.

www.mycnhstore.com

 

[marlin54]

Looks like you are missing the parts that attach to the casting at the rear of the transmission. These are what engage and disengage the shaft. You'd be better off getting the whole assembly from a parts tractor and replacing the casting with the complete assembly. That would require splitting the tractor. It looks like that complete shifter assembly and the cover with the lever are all the same from 1955 up to 1964, 100 or 1000 series, except for select-o-speed transmissions. Same with PTO shaft. Once split, you can put the seal in between the hydraulic chamber and the differential housing. There should also be a bushing in the housing which is probably already there.

The parts manuals on the CNH site are great references to see what parts fit which models.

New Holland Agriculture Genuine Parts | Online Store | MyCNH US Store

Get Genuine OEM Parts and Replacement Parts for New Holland AG. Discover special offers and seasonal sales and events.

www.mycnhstore.com

I dont get it ...the lever is missing ...and the shaft ...I guess I would have to see a diagram ...I tried to go to that website...cant seem to even find what I am seeking..,,that is too confusing....they need to make it easier to use....thanks for the help but that is the worst web site I ever tried to use....too confusing

 

[john in la]

The hundred series and the 4 cylinder thousand series have the same components but that is a hundred series rear end. It was cast on June 27 1961.
151297 is a late 1961 built tractor.

First thing I thought of when looking at that 3 spline chain gear was the Elenco also as that would only be driven when the tractor is in motion.

If you can see the spline PTO shifter you will need the side cover and shift rail along with a complete PTO shaft with the seals and bearings.

 

[marlin54]

The hundred series and the 4 cylinder thousand series have the same components but that is a hundred series rear end. It was cast on June 27 1961.
151297 is a late 1961 built tractor.

First thing I thought of when looking at that 3 spline chain gear was the Elenco also as that would only be driven when the tractor is in motion.

If you can see the spline PTO shifter you will need the side cover and shift rail along with a complete PTO shaft with the seals and bearings.

Ok thanks for the diagram....so are yiu saying then that I have a hundred series rearend then ok .....and the tractor was built in late 1961 then thats helpful...thanks...!,
And so with the pictures I put on here ...your thinking I will need the complete shaft and bearings and seals ,,,and I will need the coupler also .. and I would need a shifter plate and lever assembly too.....is there anythng else I would need ? .I can get the PTO assembly and coupler new but cant seem to find a shifter plate assembly...would one off a earlyer tractor like an 8N work? so I will have to get one out of a tractor salvage yard ...and I dont have a shifter plate to take off to know if I am missing anything and the diagrams help but does not have discriptions ..so Im not sure if Im missing anything ...what is this shiffing rail and shifting rod things im reding about ? does my pictures show I need them or doe my tractor have that from what ou can see?

 

[Sean in PA]

The shifter plate assembly from any 1955 through 1964 Ford tractor should work. Anything in the 600, 800, 601, 801, or 4 cylinder 2000 or 4000 series, with the exception of the S-O-S models, of course since they had a cable controlled, hydraulically actuates, independent PTO.

 

[marlin54]

The shifter plate assembly from any 1955 through 1964 Ford tractor should work. Anything in the 600, 800, 601, 801, or 4 cylinder 2000 or 4000 series, with the exception of the S-O-S models, of course since they had a cable controlled, hydraulically actuates, independent PTO.

Thanks for that info....now that I have looked at some pctures on computer I see the setup....so what I need is aPTO shaft with all the bearings and seals ect and I can get a new one complete .....and I will need a shifter plate assembly ,,,,,,and A shifter rail and the stop fork and the nut for the end of the shaft.... Last question is I can see the splined shaft in the pto assembyl showing inside the housing through the square slot cut out......does that mean that all the parts like the shaft bearing,seal,snap rings is probably in there ...and all I need is a coupler for the 2 opposing splines ?
1 more question...there is a hole over top the rail sticking straight up as I look down inside on the rail ........the picure I have on tht casting has a hole ...and I have a diagram here showing the rail and at th end 2 cut outs...I image tat is wheree the detent ball and spring goes? ..and I will have to find these parts too...anyone know where to get them?

 

[KCM]

All you have for the PTO shift unit is the casting. You needed everything else. The easiest thing to do is buy the complete shifter and casting assembly which will have all the parts. A seller on eBay has the parts you need:

Item #365807037008, shifter assembly (4-speed)
Item #157254360857, shifter assembly (5-speed)
Item #365809596157, side cover

You will need the complete PTO shaft assembly too, which you already know you need.

As I said before, I think there is a bearing/bushing that goes in the front of the differential housing where the plug will be taken out, and there should be an oil seal there. Make sure the bearing is there after removing the plug, and install a seal. Easiest way is to split the tractor.

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated the eBay seller.