861 diesel starting problem

[Tater_51]

Have an old Ford diesel, I believe it's the 861. Recently when starting I would have to push the start button several times, clicking, before it would start. The other day it wouldn't start at all and I could see one of the wires on the relay was heating up. I figured it needed to be replaced. Put in a new starter relay today and when I went to start I again had nothing but this time my battery ground was smoking, way hot. I got the cable off and upon looking things over found that the starter was also very hot. I have no clue where to look for the problem. Any help greatly appreciated.

 

[Tater_51]

The relay I was sold is listed for Ford tractor series 2000-5000. Appears to be the same as the one that was on the tractor, could there be a difference to cause a problem?

 

[John P.]

Could you have installed a negative ground relay on a positive ground tractor?

 

[Jim.ME]

Could you have installed a negative ground relay on a positive ground tractor?

A solenoid relay will work on either ground. It is likely more a case of did he put a grounded base solenoid/relay on where his tractor needs an insulated base one if it still uses the starter button by the gear shift. The 2000-5000 one is grounded base I believe. Internal circuitry makes the difference; they look the same externally. I don't have the part number with me for the one he needs.

 

[nashranch]

you probably need this solenoid

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Ford-801_Starter-Solenoid-12-Volt_D2AF11450AA.html

 

[nashranch]

here is the isolated base solenoid

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Ford-801_Starter-Solenoid-Isolated-Base_311006.html

 

[Sean in PA]

A solenoid for the 2000-5000 series has a grounded case. The 861 needs one with an isolated ground.

 

[Tater_51]

I should have known better........got the isolated ground one ordered, just hope I didn't fry some wires as it was hot!

 

[Gary(Stoneboro)]

Could you have installed a negative ground relay on a positive ground tractor?

An 861 Diesel is 12 volt negative ground.

 

[nashranch]

I also ordered the wrong solenoid for my 841. On mine with the isolated ground one as soon as I turned the key on it started cranking. What i did then was cut the rivets on old solenoid and took it apart to clean up the contacts and then wired it back together for now. Worked great for me for now

 

[john in la]

you probably need this solenoid

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Ford-801_Starter-Solenoid-12-Volt_D2AF11450AA.html

Tractor parts place that doesn’t even know tractor parts. LOL.
First it says will fit 801 and 3000 tractors.
Those two tractors use different solenoids so that is not possible.
Then it says replaces part 311007FR 12 volt and I terminal grounds through the base.
311007FR Is a 6 volt solenoid that does not ground through the base.

The original poster needs part 311006 (Napa st542). That is a 12 volt 4 post solenoid that is isolated from ground.
If you make a mistake and buy the 65 and newer solenoid that grounds through the solenoid base the tractor will try to start as soon as you turn the key on.
I suspect with the wires getting hot indicates a direct short to ground and the tractor not cranking he will eventually find the starter is shorted out and needs replaced.

 

[Tater_51]

While waiting for the correct solenoid to arrive, should I need to replace the starter is there a specific starter for the 821 diesel that's different? It got hot as did the ground wire, couldn't even touch the ground wire from battery to block.

 

[Jim.ME]

While waiting for the correct solenoid to arrive, should I need to replace the starter is there a specific starter for the 821 diesel that's different? It got hot as did the ground wire, couldn't even touch the ground wire from battery to block.

It would not seem right that the starter would get hot if the solenoid was not sending power to it. You might want to check the starter out (or have it checked). Could it be locked in the ring gear? Also, hot cables can mean a bad connection or internal corrosion/damage. Time to clean both ends or both battery cables and the attaching points. Make sure the ground is to the chassis, not sheet metal and that the cable ends are tight and in good condition.

 

[john in la]

First we need to test the starter.
The proper way is to take the starter off and bench test it with a battery. But some people have problems getting the drive retracted.
You can test it on the tractor. Take one battery cable loose. With a bolt connect the two battery wires at the solenoid. This bypasses everything and hooks power directly to starter. Now touch the cable to battery. It should try to crank.
It starter cranks everything is good.
If nothing happens you have a bad connection somewhere.
If wires get hot your starter is bad.
If it shows bad you can then take the starter off and bench test it by hooking jumper cable ground to starter case and positive to bolt on starter just to verify something weird was not happening when the starter was on the tractor.

First I recommend you have your starter rebuilt locally but that is usually the most expensive option.
You can buy a aftermarket Chinese rebuilt starter off the net part number C3NF11002CR for about $150.
If you are going to buy a replacement I recommend DB Electric Item #: 1100-0123D.
Like I said earlier. Hot cables and starter screams direct short to ground and unless your engine is frozen a good starter with the drive stuck in the flywheel should at least try to spin the motor over.

Starter w/Drive for Ford New Holland Tractor - C3NF11002CR

Shop for the Starter w/Drive for Ford New Holland Tractor - C3NF11002CR at DB Electrical. The best selection, low prices, fast shipping, and great customer service.

www.dbelectrical.com

 

[TractorDad3]

A solenoid for the 2000-5000 series has a grounded case. The 861 needs one with an isolated ground.

On the subject of solenoids for these 4-cylinder diesels, is an isolated ground case needed for the manifold heater circuit as well?

 

[nashranch]

Ridicuously priced at Napa auto parts

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/ECHST542

 

[john in la]

Yes the starter solenoid and the manifold heater solenoid is the same part.

 

[TractorDad3]

Yes the starter solenoid and the manifold heater solenoid is the same part.

Thank you

 

[Tater_51]

Tractor parts place that doesn’t even know tractor parts. LOL.
First it says will fit 801 and 3000 tractors.
Those two tractors use different solenoids so that is not possible.
Then it says replaces part 311007FR 12 volt and I terminal grounds through the base.
311007FR Is a 6 volt solenoid that does not ground through the base.

The original poster needs part 311006 (Napa st542). That is a 12 volt 4 post solenoid that is isolated from ground.
If you make a mistake and buy the 65 and newer solenoid that grounds through the solenoid base the tractor will try to start as soon as you turn the key on.
I suspect with the wires getting hot indicates a direct short to ground and the tractor not cranking he will eventually find the starter is shorted out and needs replaced.

So just to make sure I have it right. I remove and attach the two blue marked wires (bolt together). The one on the left is attached to the starter and the one on the right will be attached to + on the battery. I will remove the - ground before attaching and once together touch my ground to the battery to test? Thanks for all the help.

 

[john in la]

Yes by attaching those two blue wires together with a bolt you are bypassing the solenoid and taking it out of the equation.
Then hook the battery up but be ready to pull one battery wire off if things go bad.
If it does not crank is this situation something is wrong.
Either the starter is shorted out (Hot wire)
Or it does nothing and then we can move to bad wire connection or bad starter.
Based or your past post I'm thinking the wires will get hot.
At that point you can remove the starter wire from the starter and hook up battery just to rule out a bad wire shorted to ground.

But like I said I believe your starter is bad and shorted to ground.
Only reason I am making you go through all these steps is I am not there and want to rule out all other things before I tell you to spend $150 on a starter and that does not cure the problem.