8n dies

[fball1208]

I have a front mount 8n that has been converted to 12v. About 2 yrs ago i had it running great until the ring gear which had teeth missing destroyed my started bendix. Flash forward to this year. I was finally able to split the tractor and replace the ring gear and get everything back together. I drained the tank, fresh gas, cleaned the carb (had tons of crap in it from sitting), checked spark which is good, and checked fuel flow which is also good. Now when i go to start it it will start and run about 3-10 seconds and quit. Checked spark when it dies and it still looks good and so does fuel flow. What else should i look at now

 

[Den N Ms]

fball1208 ,Check for plugged passage ways in the carb.Clean with a small wire ,carburetor cleaner Till all passages are open.

 

[Bruce(VA)]

You could have a spark issue.


You could have a fuel issue.


Dont guess. Troubleshoot. See tip # 13 at the link below.


You need to answer 2 questions before you do anything else:


With the bolt in the carb bowl removed and the gas on, will the fuel flow fill a pint jar in less than 2 minutes?


Next, get out your adjustable gap spark checker * , open the gap to 1/4", hook it up, turn the key on and crank the engine. Does the spark jump 1/4"? Post back
with the answers.


And do not buy a new part for the tractor until you can answer this question: how do I know the part on the tractor is defective?

Once you narrow the problem to spark or fuel, post back and tell us what you found (and how you found it) and you will get plenty of help to get your tractor
running.



* Don't own an adjustable gap spark checker? Buy one! Not a test light! Until then, take an old plug, open the gap 1/4" ground it to the head & look for spark.
Its not the color of the spark that counts; its the distance it jumps.

https://www.autozone.com/test-scan-and-specialty-tools/ignition-tester/oemtools-adjustable-ignition-spark-tester/10257_0_0?
cmpid=PLA:US:EN:AD:NL:1000000:TLS:71700000043798748&gclid=Cj0KCQiAovfvBRCRARIsADEmbRKBdAvAmtFfOvYiYXR7T6NYiW57uyv5-
dEKjVT_h2KogQNUUMsRixYaAlU3EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
75 Tips

 

[fball1208]

I know spark is good. Had to put new plugs in and tested the spark before hand with a tester and was getting a nice spark.

I will check fuel again maybe today if I make it out to the farm after work. Thought it had a good flow but maybe not.


Thanks

 

[reomack]

Fball 1208, listen to Den. I think hew is saying that you need to take your carb off and clean all the internal passages because it is clogged up inside from sitting. You can have good fuel flow and still have an inoperable carb.

 

[showcrop]

As Bruce says, before deciding that your carb needs cleaning, first determine that it is even getting enough gas to go through the carb passages.

 

[fball1208]

Yeah Im going to check fuel flow again. I cleaned it once with carb cleaner and a sonic cleaner but could have got some crude in it from draining the tank who knows.

What are your all thoughts on an electronic ignition conversion? I hate points and the front mount is a pain in the a$$ with big hands.

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley]

Check for spark the minute it dies per 75 Tips from Bruce(VA). If it starts all the time, and then dies after 5 minutes, it isn't the carb. If you cleaned/rebuilt the carb correctly once, including the brass elbow fuel filter, I'd almost rule out fuel altogether. That leaves wiring which accounts for 99.88% of all non-starting issues. First up is the distributor. Tuned up? Correctly timed and mounted? Front Mount MUST be mounted on engine correctly. The Engine Cam has an offset female slot that MUST match exactly with the distributor male offset tangs on the distributor. Get it mounted off 180 and you will destroy the base of unit and cause non-starting. After testing for spark immediately after engine dies, get out you VOM, set to VDC, measure battery voltage static and note it. Then place one VOM probe on the LH Ballast Resistor Post -this is the Coil Wire connection. Set 2nd Probe to metal ground anywhere. Turn Ignition key 'ON' but do not turn over engine. Observe voltage reading. It should be battery voltage with points open, half that with points closed. Repeat only place 1st Probe on the top of could terminal wire post. Repeat test. Pass? If YES you are getting voltage to coil. Fail? Problem is in distributor. NOTE: If Coil is 6V, it needs an external 1-OHM resistor as shown. Replace with a 12V coil on a 12V switchover and the extra resistor is not used. Further testing would be to go thru the entire wiring step by step and verify continuity. Just because you have a 12V battery do not assume the wiring is correct. Do you have an alternator and GEN and VR removed out of the circuit? OEM Ballast Resistor in circuit? Is coil 6V or 12V? Firing Order 1,2,4,3 CCW? All this hinges on a correctly charged battery regardless if 6V or 12V. Have it tested at a local shop. While battery is at the shop, disconnect the lighting circuit. Lights were never factory installed on N's and often are wired like a blind hamster did it. Also important are the battery cables- 6V requires thick 00 GA cables and 12V requires the smaller GA type like on your F-250. Equally important is to use a GEN or ALT belt tensioning device. Without proper belt tension, you will never charge the battery. Just some important food for thought. Above all else get the Essential Manuals to help diagnose PM and troubleshooting. You need to get a copy of 'WIRING PICTOGRAMS by JMOR' to see the wiring setups on all N's for 6V and 12V systems.

FORD OEM BALLAST RESISTOR -USED ONLY WITH FRONT MOUNT DISTRIBUTOR:

HELP: The LH resistor Terminal Post connects to the COIL Stud Terminal Post as you face the back off dash. OEM Wiring is RED.


EXTERNAL 1-OHM CERAMIC RESISTOR - USED ON FRONT MOUNT AND
ONLY IF COIL IS 6V:

FORD 8N TRACTOR w/FRONT MOUNT -12v CONVERSION:

*PICTOGRAMS courtesy of JMOR






FORD 8N TRACTOR ESSENTIAL OWNER/OPERATOR/PARTS/SERVICE MANUALS:

[i:654c4848f0][b:654c4848f0]<font size="4">Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)</font>[/b:654c4848f0][/i:654c4848f0]<table width="100" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" bordercolor="#000000"><tr><td height="25" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CC0000">

<font color="#FFFFFF" size="3">*9N653I* & *8NI55I3*</font>​

</td></tr><tr><td>

</td><td>

</td></tr></table>






Tim Daley(MI)

 

[Bruce(VA)]

If your tractor is running ok & you just dont feel like fooling w/ points once a year, then EI is a wise choice for you. But if your tractor is hard to start
or runs poorly, do NOT try to fix it by installing EI.


The key advantage to EI is that you do not need to gap & lube the points every year or so & replace them every 4 or 5 years or so. If you perform annual
maintenance on the points & change them every 4 years or so using quality parts, you will see no difference whatsoever between a points ignition system & EI on
an N.

The key disadvantages to EI on an N are initial cost, nearly impossible for the average N owner to repair, will not work w/ low battery voltage, & easily
damaged beyond repair by polarity reversal & other common mistakes.

Putting EI on a N series tractor will replace the points. Any other "advantages" will be miniscule.

If you have a well running tractor & just don't care to fool w/ points anymore, EI is a perfect alternative.

If you expect EI to cure any significant ignition problem you may have other than bad points, it won't.
75 Tips

 

[fball1208]

Thanks for the tips. I dont think its 180 off on mounting it went on with no issues. I will check the timing again on it along with carb fuel rate. Might as well start again with basics and move on. Hopefully Ill get to it today after work since its suppose to be nice and warm but who knows. I will report back as soon as I do get to it.

Been thinking of the EI to eliminate messing with the points each year. We have an H it need points messed with every couple of months and thats enough for me LOL. Was going to get the kit from here for it.

 

[Bruce(VA)]

" it need points messed with every couple of months"

Why?

Best find out because you could easily have a tractor that won't run on EI either.

The usual causes of points failure are absence of cam/wearing block lubricant, condenser failure, a decreasing gap caused by wear on the rubbing block, mis-
alignment, sanding w/ a point file, excessive current, setting an incorrect gap, leaving the ignition key on w/ the points closed, use of incorrect cam
lubricant & poor quality metal.

Also, you could be blaming points failure for worn bushings or defective advance weights. EI won't fix that.
75 Tips

 

[fball1208]

(quoted from post at 06:36:17 03/11/21) " it need points messed with every couple of months"

Why?

Best find out because you could easily have a tractor that won't run on EI either.

The usual causes of points failure are absence of cam/wearing block lubricant, condenser failure, a decreasing gap caused by wear on the rubbing block, mis-
alignment, sanding w/ a point file, excessive current, setting an incorrect gap, leaving the ignition key on w/ the points closed, use of incorrect cam
lubricant &amp; poor quality metal.

Also, you could be blaming points failure for worn bushings or defective advance weights. EI won't fix that.
75 Tips

Yeah not sure why the H does this. It has for years. My wifes Gpap said it was do to poor quality points That were being mad.

The 8n was good untill it sat for awhile before I cleaned it back up. Hope to have it running good again soon its a great tractor for shuttling wagons and raking hay

 

[fball1208]

(quoted from post at 06:36:17 03/11/21) " it need points messed with every couple of months"

Why?

Best find out because you could easily have a tractor that won't run on EI either.

The usual causes of points failure are absence of cam/wearing block lubricant, condenser failure, a decreasing gap caused by wear on the rubbing block, mis-
alignment, sanding w/ a point file, excessive current, setting an incorrect gap, leaving the ignition key on w/ the points closed, use of incorrect cam
lubricant &amp; poor quality metal.

Also, you could be blaming points failure for worn bushings or defective advance weights. EI won't fix that.
75 Tips

Yeah not sure why the H does this. It has for years. My wifes Gpap said it was do to poor quality points That were being mad.

The 8n was good untill it sat for awhile before I cleaned it back up. Hope to have it running good again soon its a great tractor for shuttling wagons and raking hay

 

[fball1208]

Finally got a chance to check again today. Had great fuel flow from the carburetor. Have a nice Crisp blue spark When testing all cylinders. Spark died out his battery did so its now on the charger. Fired for five seconds and then died again.

 

[fball1208]

Heres a video

 

[fball1208]

https://youtu.be/fsWz0ZbUZzk

 

[fball1208]

Better link to the video as i cant get it to post here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsWz0ZbUZzk

 

[a32vickyhotrod]

I'd say you are running out of fuel. Did you fill a pint jar in under 2 minutes or just see if there was fuel in the float bowl? Fuel filter in the carb is suspect.

 

[fball1208]

I cleaned that filter maybe not good enough. Wonder if I can find one locally. Maybe tractor supply

 

[a32vickyhotrod]

You didn't answer the question, did you pull the drain plug at the bottom of the float bowl to see if you can fill a pint jar in less than 2 minutes? If you can, the filters are good for flow&gt;

 

[fball1208]

I did pull the plug out and it seemed like a good flow. Couldnt find anything but a bucket to let the fuel into. I would say it would be pretty close to 2min to do a pint. I know with the line off the carb there is a good flow. Ill probably pick up a filter on my way to the farm tomorrow that way I have it after I test it with a jar I borrowed from my wife. If it has good flow what would you suggest to look at next.

 

[a32vickyhotrod]

What procedure do you use for starting with regard to throttle position and choke. What are the settings for carb high and low jets?
What I am getting at, is wondering while starting you are giving it enough choke to supply enough fuel to let it run for a few seconds until it runs out of fuel, due to plugged passage ways in the carb or wrong jet settings. You did say the carb was full of junk, maybe it still is.

 

[showcrop]

(quoted from post at 17:53:48 03/14/21) I did pull the plug out and it seemed like a good flow. Couldnt find anything but a bucket to let the fuel into. I would say it would be pretty close to 2min to do a pint. I know with the line off the carb there is a good flow. Ill probably pick up a filter on my way to the farm tomorrow that way I have it after I test it with a jar I borrowed from my wife. If it has good flow what would you suggest to look at next.

fball, those little inline filters are often the problem. I recommend testing such as 32 vicky has suggested before replacing parts.

 

[fball1208]

I really cleaned the carb again. Sprayed out all passages took completely apart ran through a sonic cleaner till water was clean and resprayed / brushed passages dont think any are still blocked. Ive cleaned many carbs, mostly chainsaw this way and never had an issue. Throttle is about half way to start and choke is used until engine fires and then is released otherwise it dies and floods. I believe the settings on carb are idle mixture about 3/4 turn out and main is about 1-1/4 turns out. Im going to get a new screen filter on my way to the farm so I have it and Im going to test flow rate out of carb before I do anything else with it. Then Ill work with the carb settings

 

[a32vickyhotrod]

I just viewed your Youtube video. Tractor starts immediately and runs good for almost a half a minute, then quits like it runs out of fuel, or someone turns the ignition off.

Just for grins, try running a jumper wire from the battery to the coil to see what happens.

Also, how long after it stalls will it restart and run?

 

[fball1208]

Finally got it running. After much searching and looking I found a distributor cap had a crack in it so it was unable to maintain a good spark for more than a few seconds before grinding itself out and shutting off.
Thanks for all the help

 

[a32vickyhotrod]

For others that have viewed this video, what do you think? To me when you run out of fuel the engine usually stutters a bit and and then dies. In this instance the engine sounds like someone turned off the key, instantly dead.

 

[a32vickyhotrod]

(quoted from post at 15:20:17 03/15/21) Finally got it running. After much searching and looking I found a distributor cap had a crack in it so it was unable to maintain a good spark for more than a few seconds before grinding itself out and shutting off.
Thanks for all the help

Wow, I have never heard of such a situation, caused from a cracked cap. Happy you got it solved/

 

[showcrop]

(quoted from post at 15:20:17 03/15/21) Finally got it running. After much searching and looking I found a distributor cap had a crack in it so it was unable to maintain a good spark for more than a few seconds before grinding itself out and shutting off.
Thanks for all the help

fball, I have had cracked distributor caps in the past. They were never a problem except for allowing moisture to cause general deterioration and grounding out if it got very wet which was when it would be discovered. Please share what you observe taking place that tells you that it would after "a few seconds grind itself out"?

 

[fball1208]

I found that there was a crack right along the side near the distributor case. I had my father in law helping me and he saw a spark hit the side of the distributor block. Engine cut out shortly after that. Pulled the cap and found the crack by holding it to the light. Changed out the cap and tractor started and ran never dying.

So my guess it was causing the spark to ground out and losing spark on cylinder 2 which is right where the crack in the cap is. If i still have the cap i will post a picture showing it, it may have gone out already with the garbage.

Also to answer the question the tractor would fire right backup maybe two time cranking at the most and then run and die.

 

[a32vickyhotrod]

(quoted from post at 20:33:39 03/16/21)

I found that there was a crack right along the side near the distributor case. I had my father in law helping me and he saw a spark hit the side of the distributor block. Engine cut out shortly after that. Pulled the cap and found the crack by holding it to the light. Changed out the cap and tractor started and ran never dying.

So my guess it was causing the spark to ground out and losing spark on cylinder 2 which is right where the crack in the cap is. If i still have the cap i will post a picture showing it, it may have gone out already with the garbage.

Also to answer the question the tractor would fire right backup maybe two time cranking at the most and then run and die.

That was a good find by your FIL, otherwise I could see you chasing a fuel or ignition problem forever. Caps and rotors are not very high on the list when troubleshooting running issues like yours.

 

[WNM]

(quoted from post at 17:23:42 03/10/21) I have a front mount 8n that has been converted to 12v. About 2 yrs ago i had it running great until the ring gear which had teeth missing destroyed my started bendix. Flash forward to this year. I was finally able to split the tractor and replace the ring gear and get everything back together. I drained the tank, fresh gas, cleaned the carb (had tons of crap in it from sitting), checked spark which is good, and checked fuel flow which is also good. Now when i go to start it it will start and run about 3-10 seconds and quit. Checked spark when it dies and it still looks good and so does fuel flow. What else should i look at now

Hows the screen in the elbow going into the carb?

 

[fball1208]

Hows the screen in the elbow going into the carb?[/quote]

It looked out but I replaced it as it was 2$ when I picked it up